They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Xplo

I thought it was too brittle to use for larger blades?

That's a myth, I believe.

Depending on tin content, bronze can be a much better material than wrought iron for many applications. Only high-quality steel is better than bronze for weapon and armour.

Iron replaced bronze due primarily to being cheaper.

[Rickoise]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

I'm not sure if there is a section for vehicles in the new Low-Tech, but...

In Basic Set, High-Tech, Ultra-Tech, and Changing Times, the baseline formula for vehicles was HP = 4 x cube root (weight in lbs.).

However, in Fantasy, the formula was HP = 8 x cube root (weight in lbs.)

I imagine the reason was that "unpowered" vehicles are "homogeneous," but this creates serious game balance and plausibility issues.

A 500-ton TL 4 sailing ship should not have the same HP as a 4,000-ton TL 8 Perry-class frigate.

A 500-ton TL 4 sailing ship is NOT a homogeneous block of wood. It is an extremely complex machine...it just happens to rely on wind power rather than diesel power or steam power or whatever.

So, if there are vehicles in Low-Tech, I hope this is taken into account when determining their HP.

Mark

I'm sorry but this reminds me of the end of saving private Ryan when he shoots the tank with his pistol
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUmLaUlACp8 about 4 minutes into this vide0)

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Icelander

On the other hand, multiplicitive modifiers do not seem to meet the reality check for most weapons and armour. It is explicitly not harder or more expensive to make a sword of the finest materials well balanced than it is to make a sword made out of poor steel balanced. In any real world sense, additive modifiers serve to adequately model how the quality of the materials and the design are seperate and these elements do not meaningfully influence the cost of each other.

As for the specific example given, Dungeon Fantasy 'Meteoric Iron' is a fantastic material with little or not necessary resemblence to a real world substance. It is not necessarily harder to work than normal steel, unless the GM particulary wants it to be (in which case he'd adjust the cost).

I defer to your greater expertise with weapons. However, whether the "real" cost model is multiplicative or a multivariate function of some sort is ancillary to the real point which is that CF is oversimplified and not really appropriate outside DF.

-Max

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Xplo

I thought it was too brittle to use for larger blades?

You can see some examples of bronze swords 75-100 cm long here
and here. Bronze broadswords are probably TL 2, but they do exist, and apparently work as well as most TL 2 steel blades.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Even the Very Fine Bronze swords must have been inferior to Very Fine Iron swords, or bronze would have stayed in use. It may be a matter of weight, breakage, cost, time to make, etc... rather than damage, but there was some reason that some materials replaced others in higher tech levels.

There is a very good reason for switching to iron.

Making bronze means using tin. That means importing from the British Isles. That means that you have to not only pay for the expense of shipping, but also give the Phoenicians their cut. Iron ore, by comparison, is everywhere.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by RyanW

There is a very good reason for switching to iron.

Making bronze means using tin. That means importing from the British Isles. That means that you have to not only pay for the expense of shipping, but also give the Phoenicians their cut. Iron ore, by comparison, is everywhere.

One type of bronze is made with copper and arsenic.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

One type of bronze is made with copper and arsenic.

Not really. Arsenic alloys were only used before tin was widely used and arsenic never appears to have been deliberately added. Analysis of ancient smelting sites in Africa indicate that the level of aresenic in the local ores are the same as the levels of arsenic in finished tools and weapons. Inother words they just smelted anything "green" they could find and kept the best results for weapons and tools. It is a pure fluke that the best ores available at the time contained arsenic.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I defer to your greater expertise with weapons. However, whether the "real" cost model is multiplicative or a multivariate function of some sort is ancillary to the real point which is that CF is oversimplified and not really appropriate outside DF.

You'd better get used to it. CF will apparently be the standard in future publications. Low Tech will definitely be using it.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

You'd better get used to it. CF will apparently be the standard in future publications. Low Tech will definitely be using it.

Now that an author has seen fit to confirm it, it's probably fine to admit that, yes, the CF system will be used in Low-Tech.

As to concerns that it's over-simplified, I note that additive modifiers were introduced in GURPS Martial Arts and this system is nothing more or less than a more elegant way to present modifiers such as +100% cost or x2 cost.

The final result is the same whether you use the system from MA or the Cost Factors. Cost Factors merely avoid the cludgy notations of +400% and such.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Eh, in the real world, cost is an excellent reason for one material to replace another.

Bronze isn't particularly brittle or soft. It's in many ways an excellent material for armour, being denser than iron/steel, for example. But bronze is an order of magnitude rarer than iron, making it more expensive.

See, that's a level of detail that I'd like to see. Iron can make cheaper weapons, bronze is heavier and more expensive, but might have a higher DR, etc....

Of course, in a fantasy world, how rare and expensive certain materials are may vary according to GM fiat, but I've always favored using the real world as a starting point.

Originally Posted by RyanW

Making bronze means using tin. That means importing from the British Isles.

Really? Did the Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites, and Greeks all use tin from Britain in their Bronze weapons? Or did early TL 2 Bronze contain tin and TL 1 Bronze was made differently?