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Old 05-22-2016, 07:38 AM   #1
nerdofdarkness
 
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Default Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

So I am thinking of running Ritual Path Magic, assuming I can recruit at least two more players.

Initially I thought there would be a problem where I would start them at 225 base points, plus 75 points of disadvantages, to balance them as 150-point characters.

However, just about any physical, mental, or even supernatural disadvantage could be bought off with a long-term RPM spell. E.g. if they start off as Ugly, they could make a long-term version of Glamor Glamour that lasts for a month at a time. It's not truly permanent, but unless an enemy has a RPM version of "Dispel Magic" and casts it on the glam character at a party, the disadvantage has been overcome by an inherent advantage.

I think this could be settled by simply not allowing any disadvantages, aside from Quirks and similar flavor that promotes roleplay. However, I suspect that long-term buff spells will rapidly make 150 char-point characters into 300-point characters for weeks at a time.

Thus far, my only idea is to limit their starting powers. E.g. start with Magery 1 and Thaumatology no higher than 16, no durations longer than 10 minutes. If I'm really cautious I could limit them to spells from a grimoire that I give them. It would be pretty obnoxious (IMHO) to chain them down to a mentor NPC, because that NPC would tend to steal the spotlight from the player-characters.

The other problem is "Dispel Magic." I believe that a proper use of "Destroy Magic" would be able to wipe out a buff. The problem I foresee is as follows:

I get three to five players to make wizard characters. At least one character buffs out his wizard by a spell that adds (e.g.) five points of strength. An enemy wizard uses Destroy Magic and rolls well enough to destroy it, or else an enemy uses a charm with "Destroy Magic" and rolls well enough to destroy the spell.

At this point, the players realize that all their characters can be completely debuffed by "Destroy Magic" and start to panic.

If I send them up against enemy wizards who can destroy magic, they will at least stand a fighting chance. If I send them up against (e.g.) vampires with "Destroy Magic" charms, they will probably get slaughtered.

The best strategy I can think of here is to let the players have a few easy sessions where they fight and evade non-magical mooks with machineguns, with enemy casters as minibosses and boss fights.

If these kinds of problems have come up (and have been solved) I would like to read about it. Also, if anyone has advice on putting RPM wizards into combat without a Total Party Kill, that would be helpful.


Thanks.
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Old 05-22-2016, 08:04 AM   #2
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

I've ran RPM since before it came out for public use and I've never really had this issue. I have some of the sneakiest players around too. They don't live anywhere *near* the box as it were. Seriously, the issue isn't "how many spells can I use to buff someone" the issue is "how can I adjust to the monkey wrench they're gonna throw with so universal a system." Disallowing disadvantages because you're afraid that your players will buy them off with long-term spells is like saying "I'm going to take all your bullets for this gun but one." It doesn't really solve anything.

I admit there is a balance to running RPM - it takes a bit of time and experience to get it right. That said, if someone takes an ability that can be countered then it's your job as the GM to make sure it's countered. You can go easy on your players a couple of sessions - I do that myself - but eventually they must get what they paid for or you're giving them free points. (And if you are okay with that then that's cool, but don't complain about "balance" later on.)
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Old 05-22-2016, 08:26 AM   #3
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Default Re: Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

I have this problem in a current game. The Ritual Adept PC buffs up the entire party so that they are all effectively hundreds of points above their "actual" point total. They lose their buffs sometimes for various plot reasons, but with Ritual Adept it's a matter of minutes to cast them again. Since he buffs everyone equally, the players are all happy about it, which is definitely a plus.

But it's very hard for me (the GM) to create balanced encounters. As you pointed out, if they go up against an enemy that challenges them when they have the buffs, then they are one die roll (that Destroy Magic ritual you mentioned) away from a TPK, since without buffs they are SO much weaker. WAY too swingy for my taste.
Generally, I've either had them fight enemies that are basically speedbumps, face foes/situations that challenge them even with the buffs, or run into circumstances where they know ahead of time they can't use magic or magic is weaker for some reason (so I'll know approximately how powerful they are rather than having that one crucial die roll decide their fate).

I have come to the conclusion that RPM is not really a great system for action-heavy games. It might be fun for intrigue-heavy games; magic shortcuts plots sometimes, but that's true with any magic system as far as I can tell.

I plan to return to standard magic for future games, for my own sanity's sake if nothing else. The "spells on" penalty is a great balancing factor on endless buffing that's very much missing from RPM. In addition, Magery limits on levels of effect for many spells puts a reasonable overall power level limit on individual spells. Finally, it's easier to limit how much a standard mage can benefit from "preparation." An RPM-ist becomes absurdly more powerful given time to prepare.

I'll grant that RPM is more "true" to fantasy books and movies than standard magic. But gameability is more important to me than verisimilitude, especially when we're talking about something entirely fictional...
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Old 05-22-2016, 09:48 AM   #4
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Default Re: Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
I have this problem in a current game. The Ritual Adept PC buffs up the entire party so that they are all effectively hundreds of points above their "actual" point total. They lose their buffs sometimes for various plot reasons, but with Ritual Adept it's a matter of minutes to cast them again. Since he buffs everyone equally, the players are all happy about it, which is definitely a plus.

But it's very hard for me (the GM) to create balanced encounters. As you pointed out, if they go up against an enemy that challenges them when they have the buffs, then they are one die roll (that Destroy Magic ritual you mentioned) away from a TPK, since without buffs they are SO much weaker. WAY too swingy for my taste.
May I offer a different way of conceptualizing the encounter? It seems like right now you're trying to calibrate the encounter based on either normal PCs or buff PCs. Why not shift the focus slightly so the question is: is this an encounter where magic will be in play, or not? If not, then the enemies should be calibrated to normal PCs, and the key strategic question is "how will the enemies attempt to take magic out of the equation" (dispel, low-mana area, other threats that exhaust the PCs' magic reserves (time, FP, or conditional rituals)?

Alternatively, if magic is in play, then the enemies should think strategically about how they use that. Can the enemies buff themselves? Are there non-physical challenges that will tax the PCs mentally? Can you create difficult choices for the PCs (sacrifice A to achieve B or sacrifice B to achieve A, but can't do both) and then continue the game by exploring the consequences of those choices down the road?
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Old 05-22-2016, 09:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

Stacking spells is a good limiter here.
That Buff to get rid of your Lame or Unattractive disad gets in the way of or is overwritten with some other buff spells.
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

Do remember- effects cannot stack.

If you are using a greater control mind to convince others your are beautiful, you can't also use greater control mind to mind control someone. Your are 'burning' one of the ~12 ritual effects you can maintain on cancelling a disadvantage (yes there are more than 12 ritual effect categories but there are only certain ones which are appropriate for self buffs)

Further 18s happen, and the resulting backlash is somewhat vindictive- enchanting yourself to not be ugly is SL well and good until you fail your daily 'enchant self ritual' and the energy instead goes and allows everyone you have fooled, ever, to know your true ugliness, and know they have been duped.

I'd all my room casters, only two users use the 'stable long term' spell. One to allow her crossbow to auto reload itself, and one to create a powerful weapon add well as powerful party wide combat and durability boosts. The auto loading crossbow is an all the time thing and will admit, it completely changes the PCs ability to do damage. The weapon/combat boosts are used only when required.

Next: just like a setting with cybernetics, if you take one arm as a disadvantage and then but a new arm, you go into point debt. If you take one arm there is a reason you have not had it replaced yet.

Finally, some disadvantages will not lend to soothing via magic; if you are overconfident you will not recognise that you are overconfident, you just rate yourself highly. Casting 'lower my self image' on self would seem crazy to anyone. Similarly a bully generally likes being able to buffalo others into doing what they want, they are not going to enscorrel themselves to be kind to others.
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:16 AM   #7
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Default Re: Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

The flip side to the long term buffs is it makes the other players feel like their character isn't really relevant except as a way to hold enchantments for the wizard.

I'm coming to the end of a campaign and may be starting a new one that has RPM in it.

Currently my PC's can all be effectively invisible, have +2 to Dexterity or Strength, and +3 to active defenses.

In the next game that has RPM those sorts of buffs will just not be possible and RPM areas will be split up where some abilities don't exist in RPM to allow for special areas that aren't RPM to have their thing.
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Old 05-22-2016, 11:53 AM   #8
Gnome
 
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Default Re: Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophyguy View Post
May I offer a different way of conceptualizing the encounter? It seems like right now you're trying to calibrate the encounter based on either normal PCs or buff PCs. Why not shift the focus slightly so the question is: is this an encounter where magic will be in play, or not? If not, then the enemies should be calibrated to normal PCs, and the key strategic question is "how will the enemies attempt to take magic out of the equation" (dispel, low-mana area, other threats that exhaust the PCs' magic reserves (time, FP, or conditional rituals)?
If the enemies can automatically or definitely take out (or weaken) magic somehow, that's fine. And I've used NMZs that way. I've used time pressure and various ways to keep the PCs at low FP or random penalties, etc. during the adventure. But you generally want PCs to have a chance to do cool stuff.

And I've been hesitant to use a dispel or other resisted effect, because then you have a situation where the magic may or may not go away, depending on the dice. Because the buffs are so powerful, just one of these dropping can change a battle from challenging but beatable to a TPK.
Quote:
Alternatively, if magic is in play, then the enemies should think strategically about how they use that. Can the enemies buff themselves? Are there non-physical challenges that will tax the PCs mentally? Can you create difficult choices for the PCs (sacrifice A to achieve B or sacrifice B to achieve A, but can't do both) and then continue the game by exploring the consequences of those choices down the road?
These are good suggestions for any game using any magic system I would think. Comparing RPM to Magic (which I'll admit I'm biased towards as I've had so much fun with it for so many years), I found I had less of these headaches with Magic.
We've also had an insane amount of bookkeeping with RPM due to the ability to have so many Conditional Rituals and ongoing spells at once. This administrative bloat is in part due to the dominance of buffs as well--at least at our table, the way I see it. I realize others have enjoyed RPM, and the improvisational nature of it is really neat. But for now after a mini-campaign run by someone else (2-3 sessions) and my current campaign (15-20 sessions in so far), I prefer the gameplay with Magic.
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Old 05-22-2016, 11:57 AM   #9
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Default Re: Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
And I've been hesitant to use a dispel or other resisted effect, because then you have a situation where the magic may or may not go away, depending on the dice. Because the buffs are so powerful, just one of these dropping can change a battle from challenging but beatable to a TPK.
You're doing it upside down.

Balance it so that a successful dispel changes the battle from a speedbump to challenging but beatable.
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Old 05-23-2016, 02:53 AM   #10
nerdofdarkness
 
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Default Re: Ritual Path Magic buffs: CharPoints and Dispel Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post

I have come to the conclusion that RPM is not really a great system for action-heavy games. It might be fun for intrigue-heavy games; ...

I'll grant that RPM is more "true" to fantasy books and movies than standard magic. But gameability is more important to me than verisimilitude, especially when we're talking about something entirely fictional...
I sympathize with your situation. I figure that it's worthwhile to run at least one campaign, even if I can't get the action scenes up to my standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophyguy View Post
the question is: is this an encounter where magic will be in play, or not? If not, then the enemies should be calibrated to normal PCs, and the key strategic question is "how will the enemies attempt to take magic out of the equation" (dispel, low-mana area, other threats that exhaust the PCs' magic reserves (time, FP, or conditional rituals)?

Alternatively, if magic is in play, then the enemies should think strategically about how they use that. Can the enemies buff themselves? Are there non-physical challenges that will tax the PCs mentally? Can you create difficult choices for the PCs (sacrifice A to achieve B or sacrifice B to achieve A, but can't do both) and then continue the game by exploring the consequences of those choices down the road?
I think that after the players figure out the basics of the system, magic will have to be in play.

I think some "Mage: the Ascension-style" pseudo-philosophy might be necessary to make the whole thing seem plausible. I guess I will find out if I ever recruit enough players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Stacking spells is a good limiter here.
That Buff to get rid of your Lame or Unattractive disad gets in the way of or is overwritten with some other buff spells.
That is true. If the players push their limits taking away their "Chronic Pain" disadvantages and the like, they won't be able to strengthen their bodies to become Buffy the Vampire slayer wanna-bes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Do remember- effects cannot stack.

If you are using a greater control mind to convince others your are beautiful, you can't also use greater control mind to mind control someone. ...

Further 18s happen, and the resulting backlash is somewhat vindictive-
I am a newbie, but I think you're misreading the stacking rules, or else I'm misreading your claim.

A subject cannot be under the influence of the same spell effect from different rituals.

But a wizard can give himself a Create Energy effect (e.g. a Skyrim-style "Flame Cloak") and still shoot firebolts at his enemies. Buffing himself with a flame cloak doesn't make him unable to do all energy spells - it means that he can't benefit from another Create Energy buff, or any other effect that would add to Flame Cloak.

Similarly, if I'm reading the rules correctly, a wizard could use Control Mind on himself for one effect (e.g. granting himself psi powers of clairvoyance) and still use Control Mind on enemies (e.g. dominating the mook into unlocking the enemy fortress).

If I'm wrong about this, please refer me to the text that shows I'm misreading these rules, because if I'm misreading this rule, I'm probably misreading many others as well.
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