Constant Encumbrance during daily activity and fatigue?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

I never weighed each individual piece of gear, but buck nekkid I weigh about 250 and suited up I weigh about 290. I actually weighed myself one morning getting ready for work.

So:

Clothing... boots, socks, Chuck Norris underroos, wicking t-shirt, bullet resistant vest, 5.11 holster t-shirt, uniform pants and blouse, shirt garters, pants belt... badge, name plate.

Gear in pockets... pens, notebook, work cell phone, personal cell phone, Miranda card, DUI clue card, spare car key, cuff key, spare cuff key, business cards, leather gloves, vinyl gloves, spare flashlight, wallet, blowout kit...

Gear on duty belt... duty belt, suspenders, main flashlight, vhf radio, hand mic, ear piece, cuffs x2, Gerber multitool...

Weapons... Sig P320fs, Sig P320sc, spare mags x3, baton, taser, oc spray, benchmade infidel knife, spare patrol rifle mag

I also had a safe with a patrol rifle, shotgun and rifle plate vest in it at the courthouse, and of course they were in my truck on patrol.



My gear at court was essentially the same as what I had as a road deputy.

I was the only deputy at the courthouse, so I had to be able to handle anything until backup could arrive. I had to be able to do everything a road deputy could do. I made more arrests at the court house than the entire rest of the department combined some months. Aside from taking people into custody at the order of the court, people appeared with warrants in other cases, people drove to court drunk, people drove to court with suspended licenses, people drove to court in stolen cars (true story!), people got into fights during their divorce cases, people got into fights during lawsuits, people threatened judges, prosecutors, even their defense attorneys.

I had 4 sets of cuffs, two on my duty belt and two more in my patrol bag, and there were days when all 4 sets were over at the jail waiting for me to pick them up because I arrested so many people and had mobile units do the transports.

The one place somebody knew they could find their baby momma, ex wife, old landlord or whatever was at court... so they brought their grudges with them.

In the jail when I started the gear was essentially the same except you didn’t have your guns or knives inside. Baton, taser, radio, vest was all the same and you’d put on your guns if you were doing something outside.

Thinking about it, maybe I did lose FPs and just got used to that.

Yep I think that's basically it, I'd imagine that unless we're truly sedentary or hugely active most of us lose a FP or 2 while we go about our daily lives, and pretty much gain them back as we rest up during our daily lives. Afterall 20 mins of sitting and relaxing will recover 2 FP. (possibly 3 FP if you eat supper while doing that).

I also definitely think that we get used to stuff like operating while carrying stuff (could easily define that as developing extra BL in that area in GURPS terms, but IME its also includes working out how to hang it off yourself in the most comfortable and least intrusive way!)

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

By the standards of other animals, it IS a lot, given that 350 calories represents the better part of a typical meal, or about 1/5 of all calories required for a 1,600 calorie diet.

OK but by the standards of other animals isn't very relevant to our standards and different levels of activity.

350 calories is really not very much in great scheme of things for those of us with ready access to calares anyway.


But that is not to say you can never get knacked sitting down and doing brainwork all day, believe me a long day of stressful problem solving can be v.tiring even if you happen to be sitting down for most of it!

[tanksoldier]

Exactly. FP loss implies taking resources out faster than they go in.

Just having a long day or carrying around a load doesn’t necessarily do that if it’s something you do every day. Your body adapts.

[Flyndaran]

Only if you ignore long term fatigue, which Basic Gurps does.
I take very long walks nearly every day. But just yesterday I needed a light day to recover.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I take very long walks nearly every day. But just yesterday I needed a light day to recover.

The line between 'fatigue' and 'damage' is not as precise as RPGs like to pretend; when walking you accumulate minor damage to muscles, tendons, and joints. This usually heals fast enough that it can be ignored, but the damage is nonlinear and if you overdo it you may need down time to let the damage heal.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Yep I think that's basically it, I'd imagine that unless we're truly sedentary or hugely active most of us lose a FP or 2 while we go about our daily lives, and pretty much gain them back as we rest up during our daily lives. Afterall 20 mins of sitting and relaxing will recover 2 FP. (possibly 3 FP if you eat supper while doing that).

Exactly. Under normal circumstances, you can ignore "routine" FP losses for anything less than "moderate activity" because you take rest breaks and get regular meals. Most people are adapted to light activity as a result of their daily routine. Those who aren't have the Unfit or Very Unfit disads.

But . . . if say, you're a German prisoner being force-marched East through the Russian winter following several months of semi-starvation at Stalingrad, every calorie counts. No FP regained due to rest breaks or meals, plus extra FP losses due to cold and missed meals. Metabolically, you might need 5000+ calories just to avoid losing weight, much less recover lost traits. (Diets for active Arctic explorers are sky high in calories from fat, to the point that some people find it difficult to eat enough volume of fat to avoid metabolic deficit.)

Alternately, say that you are an astronaut suddenly exposed to a constant 5-10 G from acceleration or a high G environment while rations are in short supply. Your heart is working overtime to pump blood through your body and your lungs have to work against the increased gravity as well. If you lie down it feels like you've got a massive weight on your chest - because you do! After a while, it might hurt to breathe as your costal and diaphragm muscles go into metabolic deficit. If you lie down, even though you're supposedly at a metabolic level of 1.0, you're probably still doing the equivalent of light work to moderate exercise (MET 2-6). That might count as the equivalent of Hiking over level terrain on good roads, with encumbrance based on your excess body weight. Of course, G-Experience means your body has more or less adapted so you might be able to ignore the extra FP losses.

Those are two places where caloric intake matters just as much as cardiovascular fitness, hydration, muscle efficiency, and other elements which constitute GURPS FP.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

But that is not to say you can never get knacked sitting down and doing brainwork all day, believe me a long day of stressful problem solving can be v.tiring even if you happen to be sitting down for most of it!

Fatigue from "brain work" is mostly psychological, but is also due to the effects of stress (increased heart/lung activity) and possibly increased mental workload. In game terms, it's not unreasonable for the GM to assess an extra 1-2 FP loss per day due to chronic stress and intense mental activity, but it's not like running a marathon.

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q...s-running#7568

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...hard-calories/

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Fatigue from "brain work" is mostly psychological

Only if you define 'fatigue' as 'calorie cost', which doesn't accurately describe how GURPS uses fatigue (penalties for long shifts and lost sleep, both of which are treated as fatigue in GURPS, are not primarily caloric).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Only if you ignore long term fatigue, which Basic Gurps does.
I take very long walks nearly every day. But just yesterday I needed a light day to recover.

Your right, but the thing is all this all happens in real life on a much finer grain than GURPS basic rules recognises FP loss. So yeah after day one's long walk, eating, rest, and sleep cycle you might have a slight fatigue debt. But not enough to notice, not enough to qualify as one less FP in GURPS terms and certainly not enough to stop you going for long walk number two on the next day, and so on and so on. But eventually it builds up to a noticeable level and your body start's asking for a day off or even only that today's walk not be quite so long!.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Exactly. Under normal circumstances, you can ignore "routine" FP losses for anything less than "moderate activity" because you take rest breaks and get regular meals. Most people are adapted to light activity as a result of their daily routine. Those who aren't have the Unfit or Very Unfit disads.

But . . . if say, you're a German prisoner being force-marched East through the Russian winter following several months of semi-starvation at Stalingrad, every calorie counts. No FP regained due to rest breaks or meals, plus extra FP losses due to cold and missed meals. Metabolically, you might need 5000+ calories just to avoid losing weight, much less recover lost traits. (Diets for active Arctic explorers are sky high in calories from fat, to the point that some people find it difficult to eat enough volume of fat to avoid metabolic deficit.)

Alternately, say that you are an astronaut suddenly exposed to a constant 5-10 G from acceleration or a high G environment while rations are in short supply. Your heart is working overtime to pump blood through your body and your lungs have to work against the increased gravity as well. If you lie down it feels like you've got a massive weight on your chest - because you do! After a while, it might hurt to breathe as your costal and diaphragm muscles go into metabolic deficit. If you lie down, even though you're supposedly at a metabolic level of 1.0, you're probably still doing the equivalent of light work to moderate exercise (MET 2-6). That might count as the equivalent of Hiking over level terrain on good roads, with encumbrance based on your excess body weight. Of course, G-Experience means your body has more or less adapted so you might be able to ignore the extra FP losses.

Those are two places where caloric intake matters just as much as cardiovascular fitness, hydration, muscle efficiency, and other elements which constitute GURPS FP.

True, ultiunaley I'd use long terms fatigue rules from "Last Gasp" with a view to specific ongoing contexts

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Fatigue from "brain work" is mostly psychological, but is also due to the effects of stress (increased heart/lung activity) and possibly increased mental workload. In game terms, it's not unreasonable for the GM to assess an extra 1-2 FP loss per day due to chronic stress and intense mental activity, but it's not like running a marathon.

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q...s-running#7568

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...hard-calories/

Yep as you point out it's very hard to seperate psychological from psychological!.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

Exactly. FP loss implies taking resources out faster than they go in.

Just having a long day or carrying around a load doesn’t necessarily do that if it’s something you do every day. Your body adapts.

I think its comes down to two* things:

1). how great the loses are and how quickly loses are recovered (i.e if the former isn't huge, and the latter is pretty quick as part of a usual daily routine it may not even be noticeable!)

and

2). How acclimated you get to the activity which tends to lend to minimising the loses as they occur (and thus minimising the impact of 1 above).


Made more complicated by the that acclimatisation isn't just a matter of your body adapting to a activity by burning less and less calories doing it until it reaches peak efficiency, but also for want of a better term the 'pain' involved in your body doing something new especially when it's not done something like that previously.



*don't mean to give the impression these are two entirely separate things, both are linked physiologically and involved in the same feed back loops!

[Pursuivant]

Sorry for worrying this topic to death and probably way beyond what the OP was expecting!

Obviously, the GURPS Fatigue rules work very well, but they massively simplify a lot of physiological effects to get there.

I got a bit obsessive about the topic because the OP made me realize that there's no consistent method of assessing FP losses for certain long-term tasks.

For example, if you're a Viking and you have to row your longship for 4 hours before you storm ashore and fight a battle, how would you assess FP loss prior to battle for those 4 hours of rowing?

Suppose that battle actually consists of 30 minutes of standing around under scattered arrow fire, 10 seconds of climbing over a wall at top speed in light armor, several minutes of broken running at high speed as you rush to engage scattered individual defenders, and 30 seconds of actual combat. How would you assess FP costs for all that?

So, I started looking for info on the subject and twigged onto caloric expenditure for certain tasks as a nice quantifiable source of data. The problem, as others have abundantly pointed out, is that it ignores metabolic deficit and several other factors.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The line between 'fatigue' and 'damage' is not as precise as RPGs like to pretend; when walking you accumulate minor damage to muscles, tendons, and joints. This usually heals fast enough that it can be ignored, but the damage is nonlinear and if you overdo it you may need down time to let the damage heal.

Very true. Of course, a Critical Failure with a task can result in HP loss due to spraining or tearing a muscle or similar self-injury.

If you wanted to be hyper-realistic, characters might need to make a HT roll (modified by levels of Fit/Unfit) to avoid Moderate Pain the day after extreme exertion. That would simulate the low-level damage inflicted on the body due to lactic acid build-up in tissues due to anaerobic metabolism, micro-tears to muscles, etc. Only cinematic characters are going to bounce back instantly after running a marathon, climbing a mountain, or playing a professional level sports match!