Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-25-2018, 07:00 PM   #1
Jack O'All Trades
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

I've never really understood the relationship between these optional rules. They seem to cover some similar ground without being 'normalized' to a certain set of results. I'm curious if the new edition will attempt to normalize these, 'justify' some divergences (ie. between an aimed shot with a sword to head vs. a dagger thrown or stabbed through the eye-slit), or advise against using them in conjunction with each other.

I'm also curious how people have historically ran these rules.

As an example: if you use all of them as written you end up with:

HEAD:
  • Dagger Marksmanship
    Thrown daggers are at -6 DX to target the head. Must be within 3 hexes. If it strikes, the damage bypasses all armor. The dagger does double damage. No other effects.
  • Crippling Hit
    If the to-hit roll is 3, 4, 5, or 6 (which may be double or triple damage), and the 1/36 chance that the target is hit in the head comes up, his ST is reduced to 1, unconscious. This is regardless of damage inflicted or armor.
  • Aimed Shot
    Shots to the head are at -6 DX (+range modifiers but no limit on range). Armor/shield still protects. Damage is rolled normally. Doing 2 or more damage means the enemy is at -4DX next turn. Damage of more than 5 hits stuns the enemy and he falls unconscious (though it seems that their ST does not fall to 1?)

While it makes some sense to me that daggers have a bit of an additional bonus against face attacks (although this should apply in HTH and normal attacks as well) the divergence between the crippling hit against a head and an aimed attack against a head doesn't make much sense to me - and ditto for any other case where the effects of an attack against a body part has various damage thresholds for effects in the Aimed Shot version and operates regardless of damage (and therefore also regardless of armor) in the Crippling Hits version.

Even in the case of Dagger Marksmanship's head attack, while bypassing armor makes sense, it feels like double damage is operating in place of the effects in Aimed Attack when they could have similar effects with only one change to represent the utility of daggers when going for weak points.

I've generally played with no Crippling Hits as a result - leaving Dagger Marksmanship and Aimed Shots as is - but I've always felt like I've missed out a bit on the random special damage effects!

I believe that the way I'll play in the future - at least until the new edition is released, assuming there are changes to these rules - is that Crippling Hits work 'automatic success' aimed shots to the relevant body part, using the damage of the 'regular attack' that resulted in the crippling hit. So If I roll triple damage with a broadsword against an unarmored opponent and then roll a 12 for a hit to the head, it will almost certainly still have the "unconscious" effect, but if I use a cutlass and roll a normal hit that just happens to be a Crippling Hit to the head, there's a good chance it will bounce off an enemy in plate armor.
Jack O'All Trades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 07:17 PM   #2
Jim Kane
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

In general, we found these rules far too devastating against the PCs when employed by the enemy - when compared to "regular damage".

Therefore, we generally only used them (as a coloring device) with the justification that they had to enhance the dramatic release of tension at the climax of an encounter/combat.

JK
Jim Kane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 07:20 PM   #3
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

I like the presence of these rules in the game (and note they are also closely related to the rules for bolas and lasso's!). BUT, it is crazy how different they all are. They should be unified into one little sub-system for aimed shots, and the crazier extremes pruned off.
larsdangly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 07:22 PM   #4
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Far northern California
Default Re: Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

Concur. Didn't we discuss this back about in March or so? I seem to remember a lengthy discussion about "special weapons" (lasso, bola, Sha-ken etc.) and I seem to recall the subject being brought up at the time as something that needed streamlined, reorganized and pruned.
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 07:51 PM   #5
Jim Kane
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

We did, but it was more focused on Peculiar Weapons, and not so much on the aimed shots and critical hits rules.

JK
Jim Kane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 12:38 PM   #6
Tenex
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

It seems the incongruities are still present in the released pdf of the new ITL. Any word on if these are being addressed in the final version?
Tenex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 01:32 PM   #7
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

Agreed; I feel like this was a missed opportunity to unify and streamline a bunch of related ideas. I'm sure it simplified the editing process, but we are left with literally a half dozen different ways in which attacks might target specific body parts (net, bola, whip, lasso, dagger marksmanship, critical hits).
larsdangly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 08:45 PM   #8
ecz
 
ecz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

crippling hits is an optional rule I never used for one reason: it is too lethal for PCs in a game where the casualty rate among PCs is already high enough...

about the other rules I find they work pretty well and are not certainly the parts that urgenlty need a fix
__________________
VASLeague Tournament Director
www.vasleague.org
ecz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 09:08 PM   #9
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

I am not suggesting I think any of it needs a fix; the crippling hit rules don't come into play often and don't increase damage, so they aren't really any more lethal - they just occasionally impose a specific consequence for a wound. What I point to as poor practice is the fact that there are a bajillion different sets of sub-rules for the same thing, and most of them are mutually inconsistent, appear in different sections, and are impossible to remember. This should have been systematized in some fashion.
larsdangly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2018, 04:22 AM   #10
ecz
 
ecz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Aimed Shots, Crippling Hits, and Dagger Marksmanship

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I am not suggesting I think any of it needs a fix; the crippling hit rules don't come into play often and don't increase damage, so they aren't really any more lethal - they just occasionally impose a specific consequence for a wound. What I point to as poor practice is the fact that there are a bajillion different sets of sub-rules for the same thing, and most of them are mutually inconsistent, appear in different sections, and are impossible to remember. This should have been systematized in some fashion.
Yes, I mean a "fix" in the sense you say, a new systematization that fixes (improve) the previous. Not exactly the most urgent adjustment, in my opinion.

about lethality I think that a PC losing the use of a leg or of a arm in battle suddenly becomes an easy target and attracts more hits even if per se the crippling injury does not add any extra damage.

sorry for my poor English
__________________
VASLeague Tournament Director
www.vasleague.org
ecz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.