Cannot Learn questions

[JCurwen3]

Two questions about the Cannot Learn disadvantage:

What should the limitation value be if the character just can't learn through study? Assume the rules for learning through study are fastidiously used, where 200 hours of learning earns you 1 CP towards what you were studying / training? But they can spend CP earned from adventuring and CP rewards. Basically what would it be worth for someone simply not to be able to earn CP from time spent studying when everyone else can?

If I wanted to enhance Cannot Learn such that it also applied to physical advantages and ST and HT (so the player couldn't ever spend any earned character points on any trait whatsoever), what should that be worth?

[lexington]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Two questions about the Cannot Learn disadvantage:

What should the limitation value be if the character just can't learn through study? Assume the rules for learning through study are fastidiously used, where 200 hours of learning earns you 1 CP towards what you were studying / training? But they can spend CP earned from adventuring and CP rewards. Basically what would it be worth for someone simply not to be able to earn CP from time spent studying when everyone else can?

If I wanted to enhance Cannot Learn such that it also applied to physical advantages and ST and HT (so the player couldn't ever spend any earned character points on any trait whatsoever), what should that be worth?

Trying to recreated Butterball?

Mechanically I think it would be round [-50] for Cannot Improve but in game terms its pretty crippling.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by lexington

Trying to recreated Butterball?

Mechanically I think it would be round [-50] for Cannot Improve but in game terms its pretty crippling.

Thanks. What would you peg the disadvantageousness of not being able to learn through time spent studying? Cannot Learn (Can learn only from experience, not from using time spent studying or training rules, -??%) [?]?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Thanks. What would you peg the disadvantageousness of not being able to learn through time spent studying? Cannot Learn (Can learn only from experience, not from using time spent studying or training rules, -??%) [?]?

How much time are you going to give your characters to study?

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

How much time are you going to give your characters to study?

It varies, but I'd often allow much if not all of their time for study and training. Many of the characters are wealthy enough not to need to work, and hell, if a player decided he'd have his character take a break from adventuring for a while for one reason or another, he can study / train full time (assuming no injuries to stop him), considering that what the character would get from actual adventuring (loot, opportunities to network, real-life experience) will always be much much better. So assume the potential for maximum use of the improvement through study rules.

How much would the limitation on Cannot Learn be then?

[lexington]

It's weird, Fixed Stat is a feature and so it not being able to learn a given skill. So why is Cannot Learn a -30 disad?

[Phantasm]

Fixed (Stat) is a feature because it doesn't significantly limit the character in any way. I'm not sure Cannot Learn deserves to be -30, but it's much more limiting than Fixed (Stat).

Example: Fixed IQ 10, but without Cannot Learn. This is a person with a normal intelligence. He can't spend CP to increase his IQ, but he can spend it to learn new (IQ-based) skills, raise current (IQ-based) skills higher, or raise Will and Per higher than 10. Most animals are said to have a Fixed IQ of 6 or less, yet they are still able to learn (some better than others).

Now take Cannot Learn. This person cannot spend CP to increase his skills or learn new ones, be they based on IQ, DX, HT, Will, or Per. Even if this person had an IQ 15, he would be unable to learn anything new, nor can he improve existing skills. Such a character is much more limited on what he can spend his earned XP on - pretty much, only physical upgrades (ST, DX, HT, HP, FP, and Move being the main items). He can't even learn new DX-based skills like Throwing or Stealth! (Not sure if Cannot Learn means you can't increase IQ, to be honest.)

Take a look at your character sheet some time. How often when making a character do you plan to spend earned XP raising skills? Quite often, I would expect. Skill increases are cheaper than stat increases, after all.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by lexington

It's weird, Fixed Stat is a feature and so it not being able to learn a given skill. So why is Cannot Learn a -30 disad?

Fixed stat and a taboo skill doesn't really significantly impact your ability to spend points elsewhere. It's pretty easy to design a character around a concept that doesn't ever involve the taboo trait. The price is based on the assumption that a player will always try to minimize the disadvantage, and if you're verboten from taking, say, Broadsword in a TL3 game, it's really not hard to make an axe fighter, a spear fighter, or a total pacifist, and never miss that skill.

Same with attributes - there's a lot of 3e-trained players who max out an attribute at character creation and never raise it in play. Doesn't seem to bother them any.

However, it's VERY HARD to design around "No New/Improved Skills Ever".

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

(Not sure if Cannot Learn means you can't increase IQ, to be honest.)

It does, according to Cannot Learn you can improve neither IQ nor DX.

Fixed Stat and taboo traits make sense as [0] features, at least up to a point. But, theoretically, it'd be possible to build a meta-trait that was functionally equivalent to Cannot Learn (or worse) with enough of those but still be worth [0]. I think the point is that no one would ever do that, that sense would prevail. Heck, the Anti-Talent rules from the new Talents book would be a good option if there were enough taboo skills, at least.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Fixed Stat and taboo traits make sense as [0] features, at least up to a point. But, theoretically, it'd be possible to build a meta-trait that was functionally equivalent to Cannot Learn (or worse) with enough of those but still be worth [0]. I think the point is that no one would ever do that, that sense would prevail.

What I take away from that is that such traits might be disadvantageous, but that their value as Disadvantages falls below the level of granularity in GURPS. If you put enough of 'em together in a meta-trait, at some point you would have something with a negative integer value.