Forced Retreats

[nemomeme]

I was making some maps for a scenario as a GM last weekend. It seems odd to me that in a game with such emphasis on spatial elements and positioning that the only non-magical (Trip) way you can push someone into a pit/fire, etc., is if they have literally nowhere else to go on a forced retreat. And even then they get a 3/DX save. Even if you have Unarmed Combat V! Does anyone have any house rules for this?

Taking my cues from my 4E D&D homebrew days, I was making maps with pits and slime and fire and all kinds of hazards and only then realized... no one likely has anything to worry about for any of this stuff I’m putting on the battlefield.

I revisited DT and DT2 (which I played endlessly as a teen) recently & felt those maps/layouts left a lot of potential out there which it would not be hard to improve on. But it also feels like the forced retreat RAW puts a crimp into creative scenario design.

[Skarg]

Yes!

I noticed this the first time I ran an arena combat on the Wizard map with the two shaded areas being pits. Seemed dramatic until I realized there was almost no way for anyone to fall in!

The house rule we used was that any time someone falls down adjacent to a pit from whatever cause, they need to make a DX roll not to fall in. In relatively safe circumstances, it might be a 2/DX roll, but in combat with an enemy adjacent who is presumably interested in helping you into the pit, 3/DX.

(Also Legacy removed the 3/DX roll to avoid falling when forced to retreat but there's no clear place to retreat. I put that back in.)

[nemomeme]

That's pretty good, Skarg. Even a 2/DX roll would add some tension to a map with hazards. Consider also that a foe would be at-2 DX if they just took 5 hits so even a 12 DX foe might need to avoid not just the natural boxcars (2.77%) but also an 11 in that case.

I'd forgotten that original 3/DX rule for when a opponent undergoing a forced retreat doesn't have a vacant hex to retreat to. That would follow pretty naturally from this or a similar house rule. Have to think on that. I played a ton of TFT from '80-'86, but little since so I don't remember the original rules well.

I'm going to ask the other players about your suggestion and/or whatever other ideas come in this thread. I think that would do a lot to make maps more interesting. So much so that I hope it's in a subsequent errata.

The players can design their PCs however they want, but I'm likely to put a lot of 30 point bandits against them who have an adj DX of only 9 or 10, so adding something like this might serve the PCs more on balance than it would opponents.

Another thought. Missing a roll when jumping across a pit permits a 3/DX roll "to see if you grab the far side. If you do, you can try to pull yourself up next turn, and any following turn. This requires a 4-die roll against ST - but every time you try to pull yourself up and fail, you take 1 hit from exhaustion." (ITL, p104)

While it wouldn't be often, I want the freedom of putting hundred-foot-deep chasms on some maps. Adding the same last ditch save for this kind of knockdown next to a pit as there are for missed jumps might be wanted. Unless an ally quickly saves you, you're in bad shape regardless hanging from a ledge with some ax-wielding berserker hovering over you (& getting +4 DX hits against you) even if you haven't immediately fallen a hundred feet.

[Skarg]

Yeah, people falling from damage tend to be at -2DX from taking 5+ hits, and many of them are at another -3DX for being down to ST 3 or less from wounds.

Also on 2/DX a 12 is auto-fail.

Trying to knock someone into a pit with a shield rush or Unarmed Combat throw wouldn't get that, so if I were using only 2/DX for people falling from weapon attacks, I'd have it 3/DX if you're falling from one of those.

But we usually used 3/DX or fall in most cases. If that seems too likely, another mechanic you can use is when someone falls, roll 1d6 for direction of fall, and if the adjacent hex indicated is someplace you wouldn't want to fall into, then roll 3/DX to avoid falling in. That makes it matter how many pit hexes you are next to, and also tells the GM which one you do fall into if you fail the roll.

[Tywyll]

I completely agree! I would love to see more pushing options and stuff to take advantage of the environment and get more use out of Fire and Shadow spells when the characters use them in a fight.

One of the many things that 4E got right was the dynamic nature of combat. Far too many games become static the second you enter melee and that's boring.

[nemomeme]

I agree, Tywyll. TFT had a ton of innovation and many RPGs and tactical miniatures games that came later are indebted to it.

Part of TFT’s current appeal is in its simplicity, but we also live in a post-Descent, post-4E and post-Gloomhaven world. Push and pull effects shouldn’t be reliable and shouldn’t be complicated but they do feel missed to me if they’re entirely absent from these cool tactical hex maps.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by nemomeme

I'm going to ask the other players about your suggestion and/or whatever other ideas come in this thread. I think that would do a lot to make maps more interesting. So much so that I hope it's in a subsequent errata.

The Character might have an issue with sense of balance. This could be caused by a blow to the head, poison gas, intoxication...

The affects could be

• if moving more than 1/2 MA, the ending hex could be determined by a die roll;
• if swinging a ST 14+ weapon, a 2d6 ST roll is required after the roll, so as not to stagger in a random direction;
• if performing Sweeping Blow, a 3d6 ST roll is required after the roll, so as not to stagger 1 hex in the direction of the swing.
• There could be more...

Also, a terrain feature could be that the ground slants toward the pits. Fighting on the small slant would be 'as normal'. If it became slippery somehow, (slippery spell, oil/grease, marbles), then a DX check would need to be made to prevent falling as per slippery floor. However, if the DX check dice add up to an odd number, the victim's failure slides him into the pit either that turn (Heads on a coin toss) immediately or next turn (Tails on the coin toss). If next turn, he has another chance to save vs DX or he goes in.

The Terrain itself might have Illusions/Images placed over it that fools the character into thinking it is safe ground or not.
These Illusions/Images would have to be placed before the characters come onto the scene or they would realize it was not true ground; or they can be placed behind an real object which obscures the sight when the character arrives.

The affect could be

• stepping onto the Image hex, they fall through (with or without a DX Savings roll) and it disappears;
• stepping onto the Illusion hex, they fall through (with or without a DX Savings roll) and it disappears when disbelieved or wizard wills it away;
• The GM could have the entire room be 1 hex row off. Have the PCs walk into the room as per normal. The GM enquires out how they are walking in the room, with one scout or all bunched up or spread out in a row. Let them do their regular movements. If anyone has trodded onto an illusionary floor, back all the figures movements a hex at a time until the one that trods makes first contact with that spot. That is where everyone gets before the victim rolls. The others may be shocked or continue out their movement.

The Character might have an issue with lighting. This could be caused by dim lighting, fog/smoke, sand in eyes...

The affect could be
I don't recall the rules for dim lighting right now, or fog for that matter...

This might be handled as per illusions or you can only trust the ground if it is one megahex within your vision.