Nets: the ultimate weapon?

[Michael Thayne]

By chance, I took a look at the net rules yesterday, and noticed something I'd never noticed before: nets seem like an extremely effective way to level the playing field against otherwise very tough enemies–such as a knight with nigh-impenetrable plate armor, a demon lord, or even a super-brick. The root of the problem, I think, is that nets are diffuse, a 20-lb. Large net with 20+ HP (assuming HP is calculated as if it's Homogenous?) inherently takes 10+ attacks to cut through. Even a super-brick with 200+ ST using Super-Effort can't just break through in a turn under RAW as far as I can tell. In a Monster-Hunters game, this seems like it could allow clever net-using PCs to make a fight against an angel or demon lord much easier than they should be. Or am I missing something? Is there an optional rule somewhere that fixes this?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

By chance, I took a look at the net rules yesterday, and noticed something I'd never noticed before: nets seem like an extremely effective way to level the playing field against otherwise very tough enemies–such as a knight with nigh-impenetrable plate armor, a demon lord, or even a super-brick. The root of the problem, I think, is that nets are diffuse, a 20-lb. Large net with 20+ HP (assuming HP is calculated as if it's Homogenous?) inherently takes 10+ attacks to cut through. ?

What net rules? Any net rules that say nets are diffuse are wrong.

[Kelly Pedersen]

You're right, nets do seem like they'd take a long time to cut your way free of, due to only being able to do 2 HP at a time with a cutting weapon.

I'd suggest a house rule to correct this: as a special All-Out Attack option, a character entangled in a net, or another trying to cut a friend free, can try a "long slash". This requires a weapon that does cutting damage. The weapon does normal damage (not capped at 2 HP) to the net.

An additional house rule that might also help with nets: For every 25% of its HP a net takes (round down), an entangled victim gets +1 on the rolls to escape it. So, victim entangled in a melee net, which has 14 HP by default, would get +1 to escape it for every 3 HP inflicted.

[AlexanderHowl]

Large nets have normal HP for their weight. They are ranged weapons though, with limited range, and do not deal damage or provide protection. They can also be dodged or parried without penalty because they are so large, meaning that you end up wasting a 20 lb weapon on an unsuccessful attack or a successful defense.

A classic combat using nets would involve a melee net in the off-hand and a spear in the dominant hand. On a successful net attack, the enemy cannot move or attack anything but the net, but they can defend without penalty. If you are going against an angel or demon lord, they probably have a parry of 16, meaning that the attack with probably not work in the first place. It is a tactic best used against animals and animal-like monsters.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What net rules? Any net rules that say nets are diffuse are wrong.

Nets, p. B411, "Use the Breaking a Weapon rules ... but treat a net as diffuse..."

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Large nets have normal HP for their weight. They are ranged weapons though, with limited range, and do not deal damage or provide protection. They can also be dodged or parried without penalty because they are so large, meaning that you end up wasting a 20 lb weapon on an unsuccessful attack or a successful defense.

A classic combat using nets would involve a melee net in the off-hand and a spear in the dominant hand. On a successful net attack, the enemy cannot move or attack anything but the net, but they can defend without penalty. If you are going against an angel or demon lord, they probably have a parry of 16, meaning that the attack with probably not work in the first place. It is a tactic best used against animals and animal-like monsters.

It's true you get an active defense, but you also get an active defense against regular melee attacks, and the net seems so much more devastating. Also, some enemies are supposed to be tough for reasons other than active defense, and that's where nets seem to get out of hand. Perhaps the fact that it adds 20 lbs. to your loadout is a balancing factor. Still very odd that high ST does nothing to help you escape.

OTOH you can use the net grenades from High-Tech, which are much lighter. I guess that would give them less HP, making them easier to cut through, but based on the 8 x cbrt(weight) formula, I think they're still going to have at least 4 HP, which given that they're diffuse still a couple seconds wasted to cut through them. The action economy looks potentially very favorable, in a many vs. one fight.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

You're right, nets do seem like they'd take a long time to cut your way free of, due to only being able to do 2 HP at a time with a cutting weapon.

I'd suggest a house rule to correct this: as a special All-Out Attack option, a character entangled in a net, or another trying to cut a friend free, can try a "long slash". This requires a weapon that does cutting damage. The weapon does normal damage (not capped at 2 HP) to the net.

An additional house rule that might also help with nets: For every 25% of its HP a net takes (round down), an entangled victim gets +1 on the rolls to escape it. So, victim entangled in a melee net, which has 14 HP by default, would get +1 to escape it for every 3 HP inflicted.

Unless a net is stretched taught and flat it should be hard to cut apart.
And cutting someone out of a net without cutting them would seem to difficult to get that "long slash" you suggest.
3 successful DX-4 rolls (dont even have to be consecutive) seems reasonable. On the other hand, borrowing from Binding I could see a Contest of ST vs HP to break free.
That would be similar to how Technical Grappling handles it actually (The net applies Control Points which are countered by sufficient effective ST in an attack to break free.)

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

It's true you get an active defense, but you also get an active defense against regular melee attacks, and the net seems so much more devastating. Also, some enemies are supposed to be tough for reasons other than active defense, and that's where nets seem to get out of hand. Perhaps the fact that it adds 20 lbs. to your loadout is a balancing factor. Still very odd that high ST does nothing to help you escape.

OTOH you can use the net grenades from High-Tech, which are much lighter. I guess that would give them less HP, making them easier to cut through, but based on the 8 x cbrt(weight) formula, I think they're still going to have at least 4 HP, which given that they're diffuse still a couple seconds wasted to cut through them. The action economy looks potentially very favorable, in a many vs. one fight.

You can make more than one attack in a turn pretty easily, with a target that's not defending itself.

But there's probably problems with the Basic rule which offers no way to muscle through the net (you've netted an elephant. It is wearing the net like a hat, and cannot move except to try to get it off) or grab and tear it (even if you could tear a car in half).

The active defense does count for a lot more against a ranged attack that required you to ready and throw away a 20-pound weapon than against a melee attack that cost nothing but one turn of action...

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Refplace

That would be similar to how Technical Grappling handles it actually (The net applies Control Points which are countered by sufficient effective ST in an attack to break free.)

Actually, glancing at the Technical Grappling rules, it looks like they basically resolve my issue directly? A super-strong character will be able to break free in 1 turn easily.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Actually, glancing at the Technical Grappling rules, it looks like they basically resolve my issue directly? A super-strong character will be able to break free in 1 turn easily.

Yep, if your using Technical Grappling I dont think this is an issue at all.
What I posted was a simple extrapolation from TG back to Basic rules and I think its usable for those not wanting to use Technical Grappling.