theoretical metaphysical exercise on the invention of magic

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by The Benj

Inventing myths, or discovering actual magic?

I would ascertain that magic would start as mediums, then, as favors are done for spirit animals, humanity is blessed with a magical gift in the form of a pact. Then, as man becomes more aware of ambiant magical energies and power locations AS WELL as written language, man starts to write their own spells.


So, in a TL 0 campaign, here is one way a power can be learned.

The group avenged a raven spirit by hunting down a monster that desecrated his sacred grove. After the raven was avenged, raven blessed humanity so that if they should think of Raven and sacrifice a feather to the wind, the wind will heed their whim.

[David Johnston2]

I'd start by making a list of spells that fit the priorities of TL 0 characters. Fending off ghosts and diseases would be a major priority as would be finding and attracting game. A few Body Control curses for enemies. Spells like Bless Plants wouldn't make sense for pre-agricultural societies and the elemental spells mostly require a natural philosophy context that won't exist for a long time. A spell to find water and a spell to ignite small fires are about it.

Then I'd think about how these spells are first acquired. Probably woo-woo dream quests in which you convince or trick spirits into giving you their wisdom.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Libertine

Here is something to ponder. How would you run a TL0 campaign that has to deal with humans inventing magic?

I want to hear your thoughts.

I wrote a short story about that once, taking place in my Ärth historical fantasy setting, over the course of many centuries, starting at the transition from the chalcedonic age (late TL0) to the bronze age (early TL1, eventually not so early TL1).

It turns out it was a voyeristic and quite humanophilic Elf, who seduced a pair of Human twin sisters coppersmiths (by force - he gave them very long lives, meaning they had no choice but to shack up with him if they were tired of seeing their lovers and children keel over from old age), and eventually taught them Enchanting and spell magic.

Or at least, that's one origin point of "trad" magic. Parallel invention is quite possible. Ärth isn't the kind of setting where "Humans are so dumb, it's obviously they must have had help from aliens to build Stonehenge and the Pyramids".

[William]

Of course a lot of it will depend on how magic works in general in your world.

If you want to hew as closely as possible to the magical beliefs of primitive human cultures, magic will be shamanism. People will encounter the spirits that inhabit the world and offer to trade favors with them. Spirits can do things like fly but can't do things like touch water, so humans can call on spirits to do aerial things and in trade we can fish stuff out of rivers for them, or whatnot. (Also, if you want to keep something from a spirit like that, toss it in a lake.)

Anaraxes: Discovering magic at TL10 could be very interesting, especially if the magic is of a type thoroughly at odds with how most woo-woo New Agers think magic works. A hyper-advanced alien civilization sends us a broadcast indicating a previously unanticipated solution to the quantum consciousness/observation/collapse problem that lets you alter reality by observing it in the right way. Turns out you have to do hard math in your head to do magic, so suddenly James Randi III is doing real magic while guy running the local crystals-and-incense shop is looking for a cheap college calculus course...

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by William

Anaraxes: Discovering magic at TL10 could be very interesting, especially if the magic is of a type thoroughly at odds with how most woo-woo New Agers think magic works. A hyper-advanced alien civilization sends us a broadcast indicating a previously unanticipated solution to the quantum consciousness/observation/collapse problem that lets you alter reality by observing it in the right way. Turns out you have to do hard math in your head to do magic, so suddenly James Randi III is doing real magic while guy running the local crystals-and-incense shop is looking for a cheap college calculus course...

That is very similar to the way Hermetics view magic, and something that would require written language before executing and the ability to percieve mana in order to discover as certain glyphs and talismans would need to be scrutinized for their effectiveness. At TL 10 it would more than likely come from an E.T., but could also come from transdimensional Tech.

A great idea about spirits for TL0 in making sure they have some sort of limitation that makes the PC's neccesary. I wouldn't neccesarily say as a rule they could not enter water, but that seems like it would be a common limitation, and a great way to eventually discover water, and eventually, land consecration.

[starslayer]

I guess it comes down to what type of magic system are you using, I'll do examples for magic magic, and RPM magic.

Magery is generally considered to at least be available as an inborn trait.

If that is the case some of your TL-0 proto-humans are going to be seeing things that other people don't see. Smelling smells, and other magical effects that are 'default' to the world (due to the magical detection sight that comes with magery 1).

Magic magic:
With magical sight the mage will see things, perhaps animals with built in spells, or magical plants that behave abnormally, perhaps a tree who's roots always grow in the direction of water. The mage will study that plant, take it apart, try to emulate its method of doing things with elaborate ritual and dance. If the mage keeps at it for ~200 hours and makes his from default thaumatugical research roll he will have just researched the first spell (seek water). Once he can reliably seek out water (depending on location a useful skill or interesting parlour trick); he can teach others, due to the short lifespan of TL0 protohumans that's likely all that mage will accomplish, but the next one might figure out create water, or purify water, or seek fire, and so on and so forth.

RPM magic
Much as the first people who discovered fire inevitably spent a lot of time bashing fingers with rocks, tearing off skin with bows and sticks, and breaking stuff the first mages who are trying to arrive at a magical effect by maniupulating the special energies that only they seem to be able to see will end up with a lot of problems. Trial and error putting together a ritual space, taking adequate time, using lots of self sacrifice, and getting default skill above 3 should be easy enough. Surviving all of those critical failures until you can raise your thaumatology and path skills above default might be hard, but at least they will have a good metric of progress as they are practising (Ok, when I twist left after the foot stomp to the fire god, I catch on fire and not the log, lets try twist right this time. When I try to make the fire god do all the work it generally goes wrong, but if I give the fire god my energy he seems more likely to use it to start the fire [IE using self sacrifice and ONE roll rather then using cascading rolls with skill 6ish]).

Once the first few manage to get 1 skill point into thaumatology, the apprentices of them will likely get 1 skill point into a path or two, and then you have an established school of magic ready to be dissimenated. Eventually ritual adept will be learned, or discovered if it is innate, and the limits of a persons power based on magery will start to become obvious.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

If you want to contrast tech and magic, you could go whole hog. Magic is not yet another natural law that gets discovered. It's not studied by intellectuals, particularly not with long beards living in towers. There are not replicable formulae to memorize with precise rituals to conduct.

In some universes, perhaps. In others, Magic is a natural force along the lines of gravity and electromagnetism. There are worlds where replicable formulae are discovered and passed from teacher to student until writing develops and they're recorded for everyone to know.

We can't make those assumptions about the OP's game.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by robkelk

We can't make those assumptions about the OP's game.

I wasn't making assumptions. I was offering an alternative view for consideration -- precisely because the "magic is a natural law" is so common.

But that suggestion made more sense to me as a dramatic element to contrast with tech. "Magic is more tech" isn't as distinctive or interesting with TL10 and superscience.

Given that the thread is about inventing magic from TL 0 on up, you very well may want to stick with the predictable and law-based metaphysic. That gives you something to discover along the lines of technological development, and you can make lots of analogies with historical tech development.

You could still wedge Divine Favor in there if you wanted, as an early stage. Then perhaps the Learned Prayers come next, as a repeatable formula. Then magicians might start discovering the underlying laws and adding details to their understanding, which results into classification of magic into colleges, foundation of the Thaumatology skill, and so on. Perhaps it becomes a "Magic Level" skill: Thaumatology/ML0, Thaumatology/ML5.

Shamanism, as discussed, is also a reasonably primitive view. It's less likely to lead to a rigorous Hermetic style of magic later on, though.

So, yes, it would be good to decide how you want the setting to wind up, and then figure out how to get there.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

My apologies for the irrelevancy. I read the OP as TL 10 rather than TL 0.

I did the same thing, at first glance.

[Libertine]

I would say that RPM would come up with written language as these are static effects with predictable results that are duplicated when taught. These spells would require record keeping to develop.

I would do magic as advantages with a pact limitation as the spirit might require the caster to act in a way that is sympathetic to the spirit.

The child of two mediums could, under the right conditions, be born with magery, but spells on the rpm would require at least some written trad. So, if i was to do such a campaign, and i wanted RPM, i would make the game take place right before written language was developed, then, i would have RPMs able to be passed from advantage based magic to RPM provided that the advantage is similar to the RPM path.