[Powers] Takes extra time (but not active?)

[Maz]

So I want a limitation very much like "takes extra time" but one that doesn't require active maneuvers from the user.

It's sort of like delay, but not for an attack, and is a limitation.

The specific power is an armor (DR) that the character can order to "grow out of him to cover him". It requires a concentration action to Activate the power. But once activated it takes some times before it's fully grown and provides any DR.

So it's much like Take Extra time, in that you have to wait for a long time before the power becomes active (for instance 16 seconds) and that's a very long time once GURPS combat rounds start ticking.

However, it's much less limiting than say Takes Extra Time, as you can spend that time doing all sort of other things, like attacking, defending, moving to cover, running up a stair and such.


Takes extra time is -10% per doubling. I'm considering either going with something like -2% per doubling, or maybe using a completely different scale (say the speed/range, inspired by Time Spanning).

One problem I have is that once you hit 10+ seconds, the ability becomes more or less useless once combat have started (In my experience very few combats takes more than 10 turns in GURPS). However, outside of combat, it's only a limitation if it's limited in minutes or hours.

[edit] This could also be a fitting limitation for a summonable ally. [/edit]

[kirbwarrior]

Alternate Form has a +20% modifier that lets you act while it takes effect. I don't believe there is any action you take, you just choose to start it and ten seconds later you're a panda. Compared to Reduced Time 5 to just make it instantaneous, that's pretty small. But RT1 costs the same and makes it 5 seconds.

That lines up with my gut reaction to just charge half the cost of TET for this. But if you do need one second to turn it on, I'd buy the first level at full cost. Or you can just add Requires Concentrate and then add TET at half cost.

Also, I believe Immediate Preparation Required 1 minute is -30% and Powers talks about limiting the levels of TET to less than that if it's faster. You'll likely have to finagle within that window if you want to stick close to RAW.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

That lines up with my gut reaction to just charge half the cost of TET for this.

This is what I ended up with as well, and the math turned out reasonable. The 2% per level I first suggested were too low.

It still doesn't fix my problem of "in-combat time" vs. "out of combat time". But that's a whole other talk anyway.

Thanks for replying :)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Alternate Form has a +20% modifier that lets you act while it takes effect. I don't believe there is any action you take, you just choose to start it and ten seconds later you're a panda.

I like the idea of floating this to other advantages...

So for a Succubus (H66: TET 10 -100%) who wants to use the Leech attack, instead of taking 2^9 Ready maneuvers before her Attack maneuver, she could focus on whatever else she wanted for those 512 seconds.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I believe Immediate Preparation Required 1 minute is -30% and Powers talks about limiting the levels of TET to less than that if it's faster. You'll likely have to finagle within that window if you want to stick close to RAW.

PU8p14 mentions limiting TET to 2 levels, I don't know any other books which discuss the limitation.

One house option might be that we rework TET to merely -5%/level and limit it to 5 levels (-25%) since 2^4 is still merely 16 seconds, still less than 1 minute.

It would definitely require a Succubus rewrite though because her 512 seconds is nearly 10 minutes which is only -45% using IPR.

Not to mention IPR always requires concentrates whereas TET merely requires readies unless it's changed to a mental advantage.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

One house option might be that we rework TET to merely -5%/level and limit it to 5 levels (-25%) since 2^4 is still merely 16 seconds, still less than 1 minute.

The first level is usually the worst in my experience. -5% to 'turn on' the trait sounds fair (I've used that to simulate pulling out a weapon as IA). -10% for the first level of TET, then each level after another -5%. It's a little complicated, but I think it makes sense.

Originally Posted by Plane

So for a Succubus (H66: TET 10 -100%) who wants to use the Leech attack, instead of taking 2^9 Ready maneuvers before her Attack maneuver, she could focus on whatever else she wanted for those 512 seconds.

Originally Posted by Plane

It would definitely require a Succubus rewrite though because her 512 seconds is nearly 10 minutes which is only -45% using IPR.

TET 10 is definitely too good. IPR for the same is a far more fair price.

As for Ready vs Concentrate, I think in Powers it implies it's a 5% difference between the two. If I recall right, Requires Ready is -10%, Concentrate -15%, All Out -25%.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

As for Ready vs Concentrate, I think in Powers it implies it's a 5% difference between the two. If I recall right, Requires Ready is -10%, Concentrate -15%, All Out -25%.

P112 is for maintaining a switchable ability's duration.

P110's All-Out seems like it'd be a sweet deal for Leech (who needs to defend?) surprised Succubi don't have it since their target would probably be asleep by the time they use it.

I think in the case where you have TET that it wouldn't just change the Attack to All-Out but also any Readies/Concentrates preceding the attack.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

P112 is for maintaining a switchable ability's duration.

Thanks for the page, but now I noticed it can be used for some abilities to use and not necessarily maintain (if I'm reading that last line correctly). Anyone, it does illustrate to me that the difference between Ready and Concentrate is 5%, which seems right since Concentrate is worse.

Originally Posted by Plane

P110's All-Out seems like it'd be a sweet deal for Leech (who needs to defend?) surprised Succubi don't have it since their target would probably be asleep by the time they use it.

Leech is weirdly passive. If someone is grappling you, you can leech them and do something else. In fact, it's a great idea to do so because you effectively have Regeneration: Only while Hugged and can do other things. All Out might preclude being able to grapple someone, but I'm not sure if it would stop you from continuing to grapple them.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I noticed it can be used for some abilities to use and not necessarily maintain (if I'm reading that last line correctly).

Hm...

A passive ability without definite activation conditions (e.g., Empathy) can also take them; if so, it requires the maneuver in question to use.

I take that as similar to taking on something like "Unreliable" or "Requires IQ Roll" or "Costs Fatigue" in that it probably changes it from a passive ability to a switchable ability when you take the limitation.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Anyone, it does illustrate to me that the difference between Ready and Concentrate is 5%, which seems right since Concentrate is worse.

I agree, though it's not the most consistent thing... or at least not in a way I can get my head around.

Like for example, going from 1 concentrate maneuver to 2 concentrate maneuvers is a bigger jump (+1 concentrate) than going from 1 ready maneuver to 2 ready maneuvers (+1 ready) yet it's the same value for Takes Extra Time either way...

I guess this could make sense for inherently-concentrate stuff since that's built into the base price, but gets weird when you apply it to attacks transformed into Maledictions.

Especially since TET 2 on a Malediction attack means 4 seconds (4 concentrates) to launch the attack instead of 3 (2 readies, 1 attack) for Innate Attack.

Another is P154 for example (purple box)

any ability that requires an IQ, Will, or Per roll to use is mental,
while one that calls for a ST, DX, or HT roll is physical, unless the GM
specifies otherwise.

Changing physical>mental affects the maneuver needed to do Stunts: P172 that's a Concentrate for mental abilities and Ready for physical when doing Temporary Enhancements. Same P173 Using Abilites at Default.

Now that I think about it though... the balancing effect there might be that being Will-based is advantageous over being HT-based since Will costs HALF as much to buy up as HT does...

That said, you could buy up HT without FP for only 7/level so compared to Will that's only 2/level cheaper...

But then you could also buy up Will w/o Fearlessness (buy Fearfulness equal to your extra will) for 3/level too...

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Leech is weirdly passive. If someone is grappling you, you can leech them and do something else.

P154 describes it as a transient ability that takes an Attack maneuver to activate, but is unclear on how long the draining effect lasts once activated...

H21's "unbroken series of attacks" makes it sound like each second is a separate attack though. So maybe AOA:Double or Extra Attack is needed to do something else simultaneously?

Unless somewhere there's something to imply that it keeps working on its own, like a version with someone taking "Requires Concentrate" or "Requires Ready" for Leech?

Something like Telekinesis (inherently "requires concentrate" built in) can take "Independent" to do away with the need for continuous concentrates to maintain the series of attacks....

Maybe it might be fair to allow Independent for Attack abilities too like Leech or Innate Attack so long as they are changed via Malediction into using Concentrate maneuvers like TK does?

Where you make 1 initial maneuver Concentrate to set them up but then it maintains for the lesser of your Extended Duration or MoS minutes.

I think for Independent TK that to be useful you need to buy "Increased Duration" to multiply the default duration of 1 second? Or maybe you need to buy Persistent to get a 10 second base and modify that with increased/reduced... we can see how much of a difference that would make...

3x1s duration +20% = 3s
10x1s duration +40% = 10s
Persistent 10s duration +40% = 10s
1/2 of 10s = 40-5 = +35% = 5s
1/3 of 10s = 40-10 = +30% = 3s
1/6 of 10s = 40-15 = +25% = 2s
1/10 of 10s = 40-20 = +20% = 1s

1-second persistent AEs should cost more than instant AEs based on the final, if modifying Innate Attack, but I think there could be grounds to treat TK and Leech as inherently having at least a 1-second duration built into them since they create an over-time effect.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

All Out might preclude being able to grapple someone, but I'm not sure if it would stop you from continuing to grapple them.

All-Out just means automatically losing defensive contests, which I think means automatic "break free" from grapples you previously established, although they still need to make the attempt, I think?

It wouldn't be so crippling with Technical Grappling since even if you can't defend against "Break Free" attacks it could still take several seconds to reduce control points to -1. You could keep it going by doing AOA: Leech / Attack:Grapple alternating, if you're okay with leeching at half-pace.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

P154 describes it as a transient ability that takes an Attack maneuver to activate, but is unclear on how long the draining effect lasts once activated...

I'd have to find the Kromm quote, but he made it very clear that when under contact for long periods of time (such as being grappled or grappling), Leech happens at the start of your turn.

That TET 2 example seems like a bug. I definitely want to look more over how Ready vs Concentrate works now.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

That TET 2 example seems like a bug. I definitely want to look more over how Ready vs Concentrate works now.

Psionics Powers 51 (Steal Energy) seems to follow this pattern:

level 1 (TET 5) 30 seconds
level 2 (TET 4) 15 seconds
level 3 (TET 3) 8 seconds
level 4 (TET 2) 4 seconds
level 5 (TET 1) 2 seconds
level 6 (TET 0) 1 second

The RAW deviation of 15/30 from 16/32 seems to be part of a pattern of convenience for attractiveness. Probably so TET 7 could be 1 minute, 8 is 2m, 9 is 4m, 10 is 8m... then probably 11 would be 15m but we're eventually advised to ditch such high levels of TET.

You need to do this concentration-prep each and every time per each 1 Leech attack that you launch ("draining more FP requires another 30 seconds") so you have to pay the cost each attack, not just once and then get it working on a per-second basis indefinitely.

The TET 0's baseline of 1 concentrate maneuver instead of 1 attack maneuver is because of Malediction changing the maneuver.