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Old 10-11-2018, 02:58 PM   #81
acrosome
 
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

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All the stuff about modeling retirement, independent income, etc.
Ok, I'm not communicating well, here.

My point was not that retirement couldn't be modeled with some GURPS advantages. And in fact- ahem- that is what I explicitly said, that it could be modeled with advantages. Clearly that's why Independent Income exists.

My point was that GURPS does not innately model complex economies well. For instance, does GURPS income at higher TLs assume saving for retirement? What if a PC declares "I stop putting money into my IRA!"- what happens? Does his effective income go up? Or if you declare that you are saving for retirement do you lower the income? What about in more socialist systems with higher taxes; is income lower since it is assumed to be post-tax income by some other posters? Then what advantage covers universal healthcare such as the NHS and other benefits? Etc.

All I was saying is that the default GURPS economy seems to be rather basic and simple, like a medieval one. You have X money, and stuff costs Y. In such a setting it is easy to understand. Heck, for any reasonable modern day campaign it's just fine, as well- you just assume that the NHS is a part of the setting or whatever. It's a game, after all. Just wave your hands and move on. But it is medieval- it isn't really a very good model of modern individual economics. All easy enough to handwave, but let's not delude ourselves into claiming that it's a good model for modern life. Some of you are starting to sound a bit shrill: "Nuh-uh, GURPS can do anything!"

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Originally Posted by RogerBW View Post
Yes; it was invented in 1972 for the ISO 646 extensions to ASCII. That said, since it explicitly means "a currency of some sort" as opposed to "one specific currency", I don't think it's appropriate here.
Whereas I would argue that this makes it especially appropriate. GURPS is "generic", so "a currency of some sort" is perfect.

And it may not be on your keyboard, but I'll bet you that you can find it under the symbols drop-down in any modern word processor. It's in mine (obviously) as well as under emojis & symbols in Safari. And this forum software recognized and rendered it without issue.

Last edited by acrosome; 10-12-2018 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:31 AM   #82
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The problem is that it isn't even a playable framework. It's actually not that bad at TL 8 (CoL being too low doesn't seriously break a game), but at TL 3 being able to quadruple your disposable income by living at 1 step below your status is a bit ridiculous.
Why?

I'm a TL3, Status 0, Average Wealth freeman. I work as a skilled laborer in a small craft guild. Assuming my job pays average, I earn $700 a month. Those are GURPS Bucks, not dollars. If I live at Status 0, I probably rent a small apartment in town and might employ a servant or two or family members. It costs me $600 a month. I net $100 a month.

If I leave my apartments, clothes, and servants and find a squalid room in town where I pay for little more than food, the cheaper rent, and the disdain of my fellow citizens of Status 0, I can live at Status -1 for $300 and net $400 a month. I've quadrupled my income, as you say. But it's perfectly reasonable: look at all the stuff I'm not paying for or getting. Even maintaining my Average job will be difficult when I start coming to work dirty and followed by rumors of squalid living. But it makes perfect sense that, so long as I can maintain that Average job, I make more money by not maintaining a better lifestyle.

The system is an easily playable framework. You're just not supposed to suppose that this represents a realistic economy. It's a facade solely for the players' benefit, as there's no real economy behind it. So long as the players have reasonable explanations as to why they get or spend money according to their means and circumstances, GURPS doesn't need to care about the details.
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:29 AM   #83
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Why?
Because a reaction penalty of 1 is Not That Big A Deal. I mean, from a point balance perspective it's worth somewhere in the range [-3] to [-5] depending on how broadly you think it applies, and thus should be offset by 3-5 levels of Independent Income. At TL 8, that would be $600-$1,000, so the $300 difference is clearly not worth it. At TL 3, that would be $30-50, so $300 is a huge deal.
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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
I'm a TL3, Status 0, Average Wealth freeman. I work as a skilled laborer in a small craft guild. Assuming my job pays average, I earn $700 a month. Those are GURPS Bucks, not dollars. If I live at Status 0, I probably rent a small apartment in town and might employ a servant or two or family members. It costs me $600 a month. I net $100 a month.
The normal flow for a low tech status 0 is that a young adult male will either be married and supporting a family, or will be saving up so he can do so. This requires the cost of living for a single person to be not more than about 50% of gross income.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:45 AM   #84
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The normal flow for a low tech status 0 is that a young adult male will either be married and supporting a family, or will be saving up so he can do so. This requires the cost of living for a single person to be not more than about 50% of gross income.
I think it may work differently. Here you have a young single man. He can do the work of his job, whether farming, a craft, or buying and selling. But he doesn't really have the time to cook his meals, wash and mend his clothes, clean his living space, and so on. Nor, in all probability, does he have the skills. (See Terry Pratchett's bit about the Seamstresses' Guild getting visits from men who want the comforts provided by a wife, such as a mended shirt.)

So, for example, he buys cooked food, and pays more for it than he would for the raw materials that his wife could turn into cooked food, if he has a wife.

In GURPS terms, I'm using the crude approximation that Cost of Living for Status 0 supports either a wife and family, or a staff of servants who can maintain a household, or a room in a boarding house that provides most meals and simple domestic services. The true cost of living as a single man is probably less than 100% of the cost to support a family, but could easily be more than 50% in premodern times without microwaves, dishwashers, food processors, hair driers, and the like.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:36 PM   #85
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Because a reaction penalty of 1 is Not That Big A Deal. I mean, from a point balance perspective it's worth somewhere in the range [-3] to [-5] depending on how broadly you think it applies, and thus should be offset by 3-5 levels of Independent Income.
There you go again trying to turn character traits into a Economic System. GURPS money has no existence except while the character possesses it. There's no need to balance this or offset that, because there's no actual value behind those traits to balance or offset. All that matters is whether the character's situation reflects, as well as a generic setting can accommodate, the character's Wealth, Status, job, Independent Income, Debt, cost of living, and any other profits and losses incurred by the character. My little example in my previous post showed a situation that does, in fact, work.

As for a reaction penalty of -1, that's only one thing that happens. I mentioned some others. In addition to the reaction penalty, the Basic Set addresses this: "Living below your Status saves you money, but has negative repercussions. Depending on the level you drop to, these might include unpaid servants quitting, threats from your landlord, malnutrition, eviction, or anything else the GM feels appropriate." That sounds like a Big Deal to me.
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:11 PM   #86
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

A character with Status 0, with a Status 0 job, but only paying CoL for Status -1 is likely to soon find themselves someone without a job.
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:27 PM   #87
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
There you go again trying to turn character traits into a Economic System.
Um... moving goalposts I think? Your basic choices for cost of living are Realistic and Play Balanced, and previously we were discussing whether CoL is realistic, while my last comment was about play balance.

A system that is neither realistic nor play balanced serves no useful purpose and should not exist.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:28 PM   #88
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Your basic choices for cost of living are Realistic and Play Balanced
I don't even know what you mean by "play balanced." If you mean "X character points guarantees $Y," then that's not true at all. There is more to the monetary value of character points than the cash they generate, as I've been saying. How do you measure the dangers of not paying your Debt against taking a lower-paying job? Even if you net the same income per month, you get more character points with a Debt at the cost of the requirement to pay or else. Is that "play balanced"? Is the cash value equal?

What would even be the point of doing that?
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:30 PM   #89
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
I don't even know what you mean by "play balanced."
Benefit and point costs are well correlated. In this case, reaction adjustment vs independent income.
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:36 PM   #90
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Default Re: Conversation Rate of G$ To Real World Dollars

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Benefit and point costs are well correlated. In this case, reaction adjustment vs independent income.
It's not just reaction adjustment, and it's not just Independent Income. See above.
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