Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

[Kromm]

What you're calling "willpower" probably doesn't correspond to what GURPS calls "Will," however. Your "willpower" seems to correspond to the combination of high IQ (which has nothing to do with real-world "intelligence quotient"), Workaholic, and an absence of mental disadvantages with self-control rolls worse than 15. That combo will help you succeed at all kinds of things! Will, on the other hand, has precisely zero ramifications for learning, job success, or most skill use in GURPS. In fact, it's basically just the "resist interrogation and mind control" score (so a SEAL is still likely to have a good score). In 4e, it doesn't even influence disadvantages, which are considered to be "blind spots" in your willpower if they're worth points.

I think this debate turns on definitions, and GURPS uses different definitions of both "Will" and "IQ" than some people use in real life. I also think that Talent can often function as specialized IQ, Will, or Per. One could easily call Mathematical Ability "logical intelligence" or Outdoorsman "environmental perception."

If you're wondering why I care so much, it's simple: I want to avoid templates showing up in Pyramid, in e23 books, or in printed GURPS that invest a lot of a potential commando PC's points in high Will, with little to show for it in game terms. Practically speaking, such a PC will benefit most from good DX and IQ, and a carefully chosen Talent. And templates are all about building heroic PCs, not creating Joe Realistic Guy.

[HANS]

>What you're calling "willpower" probably doesn't correspond to what GURPS calls "Will," however.

Ah. There we are getting somewhere.

>Your "willpower" seems to correspond to the combination of high IQ (which has nothing to do with real-world "intelligence quotient"), Workaholic, and an absence of mental disadvantages with self-control rolls worse than 15. That combo will help you succeed at all kinds of things!

Since most of the mental disadvantages are forbidden anyway, would you consider this covered by high IQ or do you suggest adding something else?

>I think this debate turns on definitions, and GURPS uses different definitions of both "Will" and "IQ" than some people use in real life.

This is why I keep debating -- definitions need to be hammered out.

>I also think that Talent can often function as specialized IQ, Will, or Per. One could easily call Mathematical Ability "logical intelligence" or Outdoorsman "environmental perception."

Sure, although I still have difficulties seeing what a "SEAL Talent" would or should cover.
And as I said, I would certainly encourage PCs to take Outdoorsman or the suggested Ranger or Born Soldier Talents, but I am still not convinced you should require them.

>I want to avoid templates showing up in Pyramid, in e23 books, or in printed GURPS that invest a lot of a potential commando PC's points in high Will, with little to show for it in game terms.

I am not wondering -- we both want this defined. My current template does not have extraordinary Will -- it has one level of increased will, with IQ 13 and Will 14 -- just like your suggestion ;)

Cheers

HANS

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by HANS

Since most of the mental disadvantages are forbidden anyway, would you consider this covered by high IQ or do you suggest adding something else?

It's a four-part thing:

1. Higher-than-average IQ.
2. Traits like Single-Minded [5] and +1 Will [5] on the advantages menu.
3. Traits like Stubbornness [-5] and Workaholic [-5] on the disadvantages menu.
4. A note that any disadvantage that requires a self-control roll (anything with * on its cost) cannot have a self-control number worse than (15), if the GM allows such traits at all.

Realistically, mental disadvantages should generally come off a "desirable" list, which would include such things as Chummy, Code of Honor (Soldier's), Fanaticism (Nationalism), and Sense of Duty (Personal Companions), as well as the aforementioned Stubbornness and Workaholic.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by copeab

High Guns skills are going to cost a lot more, as the IQ bonus is gone and, IIRC, you can't have a Talent for firearms.

Brandon

There's nothing as such that forbids it as the section on Talents is written. It's just hinted strongly that the GM ought to forbid combat Talents.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by HANS

Born Soldier

Leadership, Navigation, Observation, Soldier, and Tactics.

(not Strategy -- that's for Born Leader)

Yeah, Strategy probably belongs in another talent ("Strategist: Strategy, Games, Gambling, Finance, Market Analysis, Intelligence Analysis")

The sixth skill for Born Soldier was a toughy; instead of Strategy, my edit suggested Teaching, but I could see Savoir-Faire (Military), or even Housekeeing, or just not having a sixth skill.

But why swap Scrounging out for Navigation? To me, I think that that's more likely from Outdoorsman, which is not at all a bad Talent for soldiers, while Scrounging, its seems to me, is almost a defining military skill, even if rarely formally taught.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Thorkell

There's nothing as such that forbids it as the section on Talents is written. It's just hinted strongly that the GM ought to forbid combat Talents.

Hmm. While its perhaps less believable as inborn, its probably not as potentially unbalancing if a Talent includes a combat skill but is not a "combat talent" (that is, just a Talent for a pack of combat skills).

Further, I think that, given the way people learn, an inclination that starts at a young age is as credible as an inborn ability as a basis for a Talent in many cases, and permits a little more freedom in designing Talents.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Thorkell

There's nothing as such that forbids it as the section on Talents is written. It's just hinted strongly that the GM ought to forbid combat Talents.

A Game cannot forbid anything to a GM, GMs can do whatever they want with their game. B91 come as close to a prohibition as it can:

Originally Posted by Basic Set, p.91

GM ought to forbid Ninja Talent or Weapon Talent

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Will, on the other hand, has precisely zero ramifications for learning, job success, or most skill use in GURPS. In fact, it's basically just the "resist interrogation and mind control" score (so a SEAL is still likely to have a good score). In 4e, it doesn't even influence disadvantages, which are considered to be "blind spots" in your willpower if they're worth points.

What does one roll against to keep pushing your body to run and run and run when your body says "no!" Is that a HT roll, then?

Honestly, that's not how I'd run it. I'd make the player roll vs Will to keep running, and then again vs HT to see if the body gives out (maybe I'd actually do it the other way; HT first, then Will at a penalty if the body say "no thanks.")

I WANT my "Will" score to be a fairly layman's definition of willpower. Otherwise, GURPS becomes very abstruse, especially for the many newbies to gaming and/or GURPS that I play with. I don't need a ten minute or longer discussion every game about how my system of choice doesn't use english like everyone else understands english.

That's not meant as harsh as it reads, but when I hear Will, I definitely think of it as, well will. Not resistance to mind control/interrogation. Its the ability to focus the mind to covercome the body. This helps with mind control and interrogation; but it also is a prime factor why elite troops Just Keep Going, the same as many professional athletes.

[jspade]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

What does one roll against to keep pushing your body to run and run and run when your body says "no!" Is that a HT roll, then?

Other than resisting mind control, Will has a role in continuing to act when you have 0 FP or less (p. B426) and Extra Effort (p. B356). I'd say those two areas bear on the typical view of a SEAL, but so do extra FP, Hard to Subdue, and Hard to Kill. I would suggest all three belong on a commando's menu of advantages, representing certain kinds of willpower.

Autohypnosis (p. B179) is not flagged in the Basic Set as being a cinematic skill; if the GM agrees, its description certainly suggests it goes on the SEAL's skill list. In fact, it may well handle most everything that a SEAL can do with his superior willpower -- better performance on mental tasks, pushing through injury and fatigue, and all the mundane uses of Will to resist coercion.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Thorkell

There's nothing as such that forbids it as the section on Talents is written. It's just hinted strongly that the GM ought to forbid combat Talents.

Given the way that *suggested* disadvantage limits have been taken by some GMs in 3e and 4e as absolute restrictions, I think this will, in the end, gain the status of official prohibition rather than suggestion in many GURPS circles.

Brandon