Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?

[Michael Thayne]

Something I've been thinking about lately: Basic Set suggests that in some societies, women will have Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen), something reinforced in the relatively recent Steampunk books and possibly other sources. But the main mechanic for Second-Class Citizen is a flat -1 to reactions, which seems like a poor fit for a great deal of historical sexism, particularly when you consider all the things GURPS uses reaction rolls for:

• Potential combat situations: sure, in a sexist society many people wouldn't expect women to be competent fighters, but this might be balanced by a common belief that it's "dishonorable" to hit a woman.
• Commercial transactions: it's possible some merchants will assume women don't know how to haggle, but by no means guaranteed.
• Requests for aid: could be a problem if asking for help with a traditionally masculine pursuit, but seems likely not to be a problem in general.
• Loyalty: again, seems like it should be more situational—a female military officer might have trouble getting respect, but it seems like a noblewoman's household staff would be just as loyal as a nobleman's?

An alternative might be to treat it more like Social Stigma (Minor), except replace "whenever you try to deal with others as an adult" with something like "whenever you try to engage in traditionally men-only activities". But even that's a potentially poor fit for societies where the main issue women face is legal restrictions such as being unable to own property. After all, Social Stigma (Valuable Property) carries no reaction penalty at all, so it seems odd that less severe limitations on your legal rights would be modeled by a reaction penalty.

But if you're not using reaction penalties for societies where women's status is "significantly lesser then men but not at the 'literally property' level", there's the question of how do you represent it. If the restrictions are genuinely significant then treating it as a sort of 0-point feature seems wrong. Thoughts?

[Anthony]

A lot of reaction modifiers (both positive and negative) should really be more focused than a general reaction adjustment, but as long as you accept that a poor reaction doesn't have to be dislike, just unhelpful, treating being female as second class citizen seems not terrible.

[David Johnston2]

The reaction modifiers for any social stigma require interpretation and taking circumstances into account. Here are some thoughts.

1. A gentleman would not strike a lady. But most men even in a steampunk setting are not gentlemen and most women are not ladies.

2. The modifier probably wouldn't apply to haggling for the price of fruit or fish in the marketplace, things where the merchant's patrons are more than half female anyway but that's not a thing that you would generally roll for anyway. The basic necessities of life are covered by cost of living. Rolling is for non-routine transactions, and I don't have a problem with the idea that women would almost always be at a slight disadvantage for almost all of that and the circumstances they wouldn't be can be handled by circumstantial dice bonuses which should be in play on a regular basis anyway.

3. Requests for help are complicated since, since really it's not that men would be less likely to help if asked, but that they'd be less likely to help in the way the petitioner wants to be helped because they figure they know better than she does.

4.Loyalty is very situational. Always. But I think that a noblewoman's household would actually very likely be less likely to follow her into a violent confrontation than they would a nobleman. Help her, yes. Follow her, no. For routine interactions you don't need loyalty rolls. You just need not to short them on their pay.

[Prince Charon]

One thing I would suggest is that Second-class Citizen in societies like Victorian Britain might be balance fluffwise by something like Social Regard: Venerable. Men are generally expected to be 'nice' to women, tipping hats and opening doors, but aren't expected to treat them with the same sort of respect a man of the same social status would get. Depending on the character's specific circumstances, it might or might not add up to 0 points, so maybe a perk version of Social Regard would be more fitting.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

One thing I would suggest is that Second-class Citizen in societies like Victorian Britain might be balance fluffwise by something like Social Regard: Venerable. Men are generally expected to be 'nice' to women, tipping hats and opening doors, but aren't expected to treat them with the same sort of respect a man of the same social status would get. Depending on the character's specific circumstances, it might or might not add up to 0 points, so maybe a perk version of Social Regard would be more fitting.

I rather expect that, for instance, the numerous ways in which women were disadvantaged in Victorian society -- the inability to vote, hold office, own property, enter many professions, decline a husband's sexual advances, avoid being beaten at will by fathers/guardians/husbands, have meaningful opinions, etc etc etc etc -- are not remotely counteracted by that gentlemen are expected to be nice to them. (That is, "nice" to those of their own social station. Gentlemen were sure not required to be nice to lower class women.) Seriously?!?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

I rather expect that, for instance, the numerous ways in which women were disadvantaged in Victorian society -- the inability to vote, hold office, own property, enter many professions, decline a husband's sexual advances, avoid being beaten at will by fathers/guardians/husbands, have meaningful opinions, etc etc etc etc -- are not remotely counteracted by that gentlemen are expected to be nice to them.

This is the aspect of Social Stigma that gets soft-pedaled in RAW. While non-prejudiced people might be superficially nice to you in social situations that don't matter that much or where it's to their long-term advantage to be nice, many or all methods of gaining REAL social clout are right out.

"Baseline" members of the society - the people who don't operate under a stigma - define some or all of their self worth based on NOT being like you and being able to own or control people of your type. The more cynical members of the power elite maintain and gain control by inflaming popular sentiment against you. Attempt to shake up that social dynamic and baseline members of the society go crazy, especially the more authoritarian types who are looking for any excuse to enforce their dominance.

If you've got a Social Stigma, forget gaining Status above a certain level (at least in your own right) and expect huge numbers of Enemies if you gain any degree of Wealth. Forget gaining social clout via the usual means - academia, business, military, politics, or religion. Forget gaining access the corridors of power to influence decision makers unless they're immediate family members and you can exert intense informal emotional or social control over them.

Most people of your type are so conditioned to oppression that they don't dare rise up to support you, even if they might quietly cheer you on. Some are so badly brainwashed by the dominant culture that they actively oppose you for "rocking the boat" and potentially making things worse than they already are. They get held up by the baseline culture as being "model" members of your group.

Your role in society is fixed, often at birth, any attempt to change that beyond certain parameters is doomed or subject to intense struggle. Unless you're a hero, your only hope to shed your stigma is to become a refugee. That means abandoning your entire culture, and possibly your native language and cultural familiarity, on the chance that you won't be as badly oppressed for being an immigrant or refugee in your new location.

Struggling hard against oppression is the stuff that heroes are made of, and Social Stigma can be a defining disadvantage in some sorts of games. After all, Gandhi and MLK would just be modestly important early- to mid-20th century political figures except for the color of their skin and the circumstances of their birth. Some heroic figures are doomed to die tragically or fail in their crusade for social justice, see Medgar Evers or Malala Yousafzai.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

I rather expect that, for instance, the numerous ways in which women were disadvantaged in Victorian society -- the inability to vote, hold office, own property, enter many professions, decline a husband's sexual advances, avoid being beaten at will by fathers/guardians/husbands, have meaningful opinions, etc etc etc etc -- are not remotely counteracted by that gentlemen are expected to be nice to them. (That is, "nice" to those of their own social station. Gentlemen were sure not required to be nice to lower class women.) Seriously?!?

That would be why I suggested a perk version. It's even in the part you quoted. I just rambled too much beforehand.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

This is the aspect of Social Stigma that gets soft-pedaled in RAW ...

And possibly the reason why it does is that your long (and accurate) laundry list of what befalls people with Social Stigma in most cultures is something the great majority of gamers will not tolerate. PCs are accustomed to be the swaggering masters of the earth, beholden to no one, answering to no one, condescended to by no one. They don't, as a rule, tolerate being sent around to the servants' entrance, told that "their kind" isn't served here, or reflexively rejected for rank or positions of honor.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

That would be why I suggested a perk version. It's even in the part you quoted. I just rambled too much beforehand.

It's not a perk. It's just "social stigma is more complicated than a single number".

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

And possibly the reason why it does is that your long (and accurate) laundry list of what befalls people with Social Stigma in most cultures is something the great majority of gamers will not tolerate. PCs are accustomed to be the swaggering masters of the earth, beholden to no one, answering to no one, condescended to by no one. They don't, as a rule, tolerate being sent around to the servants' entrance, told that "their kind" isn't served here, or reflexively rejected for rank or positions of honor.

That might be a good reason to have a talk with players who plan on taking a Social Stigma disad, and either disallowing it if they can't handle the consequences of playing that sort of character, or fudging the setting to remove said consequences, but still refusing to give them free points for a disadvantage that is no-longer worth that much.