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Old 04-15-2017, 10:57 AM   #41
KarlKost
 
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

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Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip View Post
Are we talking about a challenging setting for a TTRPG, or demonstrating the grime and nasty basis of living at the bottom end of the social pecking order? Personally, I'm just trying to suggest a Grey Hat for the OP, as well as a bit of moral complexity for the PCs.

This is not the place for discussion of living on the wrong side of the tracks, at the bottom end of the social pecking order. I don't mean to discount your personal experiences, especially since I do not reside in North America, so my perspective is not personal.

TBH, I found Omar a fascinating character in The Wire. I suppose I'm just trying to help the OP to make his NPCs more nuanced. YMMV.
You can also base your characters on the Batman or the Green Archer. But, outside comic books, those concepts are silly.

If we are to make up completely unreal scenarios, why don't you just say that they could steal the Fort Knox or rob the Mona Lisa from the Louvre and be done with it?

There are levels of realism and unrealism that are a good fit for a desirable outcome. But you must start looking at reality to realize how far or how close to it you are drifting. If you take as a premisse some very wrong concepts, like for example, thinking that criminals in real world are a bunch of idiots who are just soooo easy to fool with, or that karate punchs can be safely used against guns, you may end up with a cartoonish story.

So, in real life, criminals are both tough, some are smart, but all are dangerous. And, criminal organizations are doubly so. Start elimimating some dozens of them, the word will go to the streets. Real soon, some big and powerful group will be worried that there is some punisher on the streets, bount to take vengence with his own hands. Pretty soon, the hunters will be the prey, as there will be a good sum upon their heads in no time.

That's REAL LIFE.

And how about in fiction?

Well, imagination doesn't need to be constrained like that. Maybe in imagination, criminals only fight back when in the same organizations. No "preemptive strikes" against would be "avengers" (even if it is a clear threath). Also, the criminal groups doesn't work on extensive networks..... Only small, independent gangs, and if one such gang is taken out, the larger group that supplies those doesn't care.

Its fine to go like that. It is a fiction, not real world. But you must understand how the real world works to be able to adapt the fiction in a coherent way
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:09 AM   #42
Luke Bunyip
 
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
That's REAL LIFE.
This is just a table top role playing game. I'm just suggesting some colour for the OP. It's his game; he knows his players, their social backgrounds, and what they are up for in a RPG setting.

The role of organised crime in the black market, and specifically in the organised drug trade is not something I personally feel driven to discuss here, and I suspect is tangential to the OP's initial query.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:42 AM   #43
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
So, in real life, criminals are both tough, some are smart, but all are dangerous. And, criminal organizations are doubly so.
In my work, I meet a lot of criminals.* Vanishingly few of them are smart, not all that many are tough and much fewer than you'd think are dangerous. In most of the Western world, criminal organisations are rarer, less powerful and less dangerous than in movies. And criminals are usually normal people who've made bad choices.

There are some failed states or states close to that line, where criminal organisations are an alternative of governments and mimic their functions in many ways. This is very much an exception, however, not the rule. And, in any case, those organisations usually aren't dangerous just because they are criminal, they are dangerous because they are seeking to supplant the functions of a state, which includes a monopoly on the use of force.

*I'm an attorney. About 50% of my work is as a defence attorney.

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
Well, imagination doesn't need to be constrained like that. Maybe in imagination, criminals only fight back when in the same organizations. No "preemptive strikes" against would be "avengers" (even if it is a clear threath). Also, the criminal groups doesn't work on extensive networks..... Only small, independent gangs, and if one such gang is taken out, the larger group that supplies those doesn't care.
In the vast majority of cases, there is no overarching organisation, just a bunch of small groups of friends, relatives, acquintances or business partners.

The people who buy from organised groups of thieves usually do not care one bit about what happens to them and, anyway, aren't the kind of people who are very good at keeping track of their acquintances. The same usually goes for people who sell drugs to the street-level dealers.*

The average crime movie features more actual organised crime than most US states do in a year. Not to mention that many supposedly realistic crime movies have seen more use of military or fully-automatic weapons in the commission of crimes than the entire US has done for a generation.

Stealing from criminals is absolutely a viable strategy. It's what most con men effectively do. But it's not usually a high-income job, because, shockingly, most criminals are poor.

Pablo Escobar was no more representive of the typical drug dealer than J.K. Rowling is representiave of the typical writer. In actual fact, most drug dealers and writers struggle to afford Ramen noodles on what they make from their profession and even with the Escobars and Rowlings figured into the stats, working at McDonalds yields a higher income.

*Who, however, aren't really people you can fund much through ripping off, as they are generally hungry, sick and their average income is less than minimum wage.
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Old 04-15-2017, 12:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

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Do you honestly believe a MiB organization would have no reason to keep the secret? That doesn't make any sense AT ALL. The purpose of ANY MiB organization is about secrecy. All those conspiracies exist EXACTLY for that. That's why those twats on X Files wouldn't do on international TV saying "Aliens..."

In the case of monsters, the revelation would mean Apocalypse. It would open war instead of covert... And that is precisely the ONLY thing that can unite the monsters (even some who may try some form of peaceful coexistence with humanity would be FORCED to fight). And, since the poo has hit the fan, there would be no reasons for the monsters to control their "reproductive" habits.

So yes, even MORE than hunting monsters, MiB MUST keep the world ignorant about them. Thats THE MOST important job (as it is, thats also the case in the movie MiB)
I agree with the idea that neither the "MiB" nor the organised monsters (like the Cabal) want to risk escalating the conflict into "going nuclear" by turning it into open war, and that their conflict is a relatively cold war. However, I'd like to avoid this thread getting side-tracked by any arguments over the importance of MiBs. Personally I'm not really interested in the global conspiracy side of things. If there must be an MiB organisation, they're not something I want to make part of the stories, so it doesn't matter to me what they are like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake Bunyip
Are we talking about a challenging setting for a TTRPG, or demonstrating the grim and nasty business of living at the bottom end of the social pecking order? Personally, I'm just trying to suggest a Grey Hat for the OP, as well as a bit of moral complexity for the PCs.

This is not the place for discussion of living on the wrong side of the tracks, at the bottom end of the social pecking order. I don't mean to discount your personal experiences, especially since I do not reside in North America, so my perspective is not personal.

TBH, I found Omar a fascinating character in The Wire. I suppose I'm just trying to help the OP to make his NPCs more nuanced. YMMV.
And thanks for that. I absolutely could see the group as willing to steal from criminals. It's probably not their regular way of working, but I can definitely see it happening on occasion.

If investigating possible monster activity and finding just human criminals instead of psis or vampires or some other kind of monster (who probably would use criminals as cover)... people are still getting hurt and people still need help, so the monster-hunters would probably be too involved at this point to simply walk away. In which case, after defeating a human criminal, standard operating procedure remains the same.
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Old 04-15-2017, 01:27 PM   #45
mikeejimbo
 
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

If these monster hunters are reasoned and logical, is there any chance that they might work with certain monsters? As has been mentioned upthread, an ancient vampire lord may be able to amass quite some wealth. Is it possible that they don't see all monsters as needing to be hunted down, but only the 'dangerous' ones, or is the possibility that said patron might only be using them to eliminate the competition too much of a risk to take that path?
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Old 04-15-2017, 02:23 PM   #46
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

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Originally Posted by mikeejimbo View Post
If these monster hunters are reasoned and logical, is there any chance that they might work with certain monsters? As has been mentioned upthread, an ancient vampire lord may be able to amass quite some wealth. Is it possible that they don't see all monsters as needing to be hunted down, but only the 'dangerous' ones, or is the possibility that said patron might only be using them to eliminate the competition too much of a risk to take that path?
Depends on the monster, but yes. In the specific example of the vampire lord, they would think “the work we are doing for it is hurting someone, somewhere, we just can’t see who it’s hurting.” But that’s because ancient vampire lords are things they know to be powerful and malevolent and very good at manipulating people. Other monsters might be able to ally with them.

Generally these hunters are very cautious of the supernatural, they suspect it would have some harmful or corrupting effect that they just don’t know about yet. In their eyes, all monsters will become dangerous sooner or later, but that it doesn’t necessarily follow that pre-emptively taking them out is the right thing to do. If the monster is doing good now, then they would rather it be able to do more good in the time it has left before it’s corruption overtakes it. By forming some kind of alliance with it, they can help the creature to do more good, and be there ready for the day when it needs destroying.

They could even form a friendship with the creature, grow to like it, and when the creature inevitably (in their mind) slips towards evil, they will see killing the creature before it hurts innocent people as an act of compassion towards their friend.

I think they’re OK with psi powers, and “sanctioned” magic, and with unsanctioned magic they’d hope to “save” rather than kill the magician. But generally I’d say they err on the side of caution when dealing with the supernatural.
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Old 04-15-2017, 04:59 PM   #47
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeejimbo View Post
If these monster hunters are reasoned and logical, is there any chance that they might work with certain monsters? As has been mentioned upthread, an ancient vampire lord may be able to amass quite some wealth. Is it possible that they don't see all monsters as needing to be hunted down, but only the 'dangerous' ones, or is the possibility that said patron might only be using them to eliminate the competition too much of a risk to take that path?
The hunters' benefactor always assisting from secret with funds and odd bits of esoteric information is really.... a vampire lord. Is he just thinning the competition, self-hating, actually moral and wanting to protect humanity? Who knows?
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Old 04-15-2017, 05:19 PM   #48
mikeejimbo
 
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
The hunters' benefactor always assisting from secret with funds and odd bits of esoteric information is really.... a vampire lord. Is he just thinning the competition, self-hating, actually moral and wanting to protect humanity? Who knows?
If he is just using the hunters against his competition, are the monster hunters oblivious or just working with him until they know they'll have to take him out? Do they both have tons of plans and contingencies for when that inevitably happens? Presumably neither would trust the others completely. Great for a cloak-and-dagger setting, even if the PCs are actually unaffiliated monsters. The PCs would have to deal with trying to figure out the hunters' actual goals and motivation. Lot of potential there, I think.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:29 PM   #49
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

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There may also be a black market for monster organs (which may also be true if said organs are actually useless, much as exists for bits from endangered species). They probably needed some initial seed money to get started on their monster hunting quest, but that could have easily come from their personal savings or a wealthy benefactor (for whom the endeavor may have been a lucrative investment).
This x1000.

I think black market with human interests envolved in getting monster parts, of preventing certain parts from getting them, can be a great way in producing value out of it.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:35 PM   #50
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Funding semi-realistic monster hunters

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Originally Posted by mikeejimbo View Post
If he is just using the hunters against his competition, are the monster hunters oblivious or just working with him until they know they'll have to take him out? Do they both have tons of plans and contingencies for when that inevitably happens? Presumably neither would trust the others completely. Great for a cloak-and-dagger setting, even if the PCs are actually unaffiliated monsters. The PCs would have to deal with trying to figure out the hunters' actual goals and motivation. Lot of potential there, I think.
With the ever realistic possibility that some may change goals or motivations as the campaign progresses. The working lie becomes true further muddying any evidence that may eventually pop up.
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