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Old 05-23-2019, 05:50 AM   #791
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by Gumby Bush View Post

My guess is that, with a good GM, GURPS is better at flipping between front-load and down-the-curb than is D&D (although still not great), but since D&D defaults to down-the-curb it has a gentler learning curve for the average group wholly new to role-playing.
Not really; the very nature of the point system is a complexity issue.

And a good GM being able to do it for them is actually proof just the opposite - the GM hides the complexity. (Usually in an effort to hide GURPS inherent fiddliness, IME.) D&D GM's do the same thing.

What it is is deception. Usually in the name of kindness, in either case. You're not kicking it down the curb, just hiding it from the player. But it's still complexity engaged with before play can begin.
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Old 05-23-2019, 05:53 AM   #792
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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GURPS out of the Basic Set doesn't feel that way. There's no "quick start" version such as those that appear in (say) Pointless Looting and Slaying or (even better) Five Easy Pieces. And there's still the matter of GM-player interaction: "Can I take a blaster rifle?" "No, it's a fantasy game." "But it's in the book!"

I exaggerate. Hyperbole. Ad absurdum. Even so: I can (and have) taken a complete newb and handed them Dragon Heresy or 5e and we're playing in minutes. I once had fifteen (!) players generate d6 Star Wars characters in less than an hour, and we were playing in full fine style right after that.

GURPS isn't like that out of the box, and I say this as, I think, one of the louder proponents of the game.
Yes! Exactly so; and in addition to this, if you are going to play in D&D or Star Wars d6 for that matter, the basic premise of the game is already clear. You are going to play pretty typical fantasy, or space opera. At the point of character creation in gurps, you need to first figure out what campaign you will be running, what TL to use, what gear to allow... what skills to allow, which traits... this process can be long and tedious. (Assuming you have the basic set only, at least). Only after this can we actually start to discuss the player character to be generated...

So comparing GURPS to D&D is really apples to oranges. GURPS is a system; D&D is a game.
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Old 05-23-2019, 06:16 AM   #793
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
Not really; the very nature of the point system is a complexity issue.

And a good GM being able to do it for them is actually proof just the opposite - the GM hides the complexity. (Usually in an effort to hide GURPS inherent fiddliness, IME.) D&D GM's do the same thing.

What it is is deception. Usually in the name of kindness, in either case. You're not kicking it down the curb, just hiding it from the player. But it's still complexity engaged with before play can begin.
Better doesn't mean good, of course, but I have a hard time imagining how any D&D GM could facilitate front-loading complexity for a player of my type (I mean, I read the books, but chewing through the underlying essential mechanics is still hard--I can't quite grasp how things were assembled to be able to safely tinker yet--and thus parts of the system still feel a bit chaotic for me--which is why I prefer GURPS: GURPS is built for tinkerers and systematizers). A good GURPS GM can reduce how much a player needs to think about at the start of the campaign and introduce new mechanics as players want them. There will still be more front-loaded stuff in GURPS with the most possible complexity kicked down the curb than in D&D by default.

IMO hiding complexity (from players) and reducing complexity (for players) at time = t in exchange for increasing complexity (for players) at time > t is what "kicking it down the curb" means. My claim is simply a) where kicking it down the curb is built into the system, total complexity is increased (which is often a fine cost to buy a reduced learning curve) and b) where kicking it down the curb is built in, it is harder to reverse than it is where front-loaded is the default.
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Old 05-23-2019, 06:49 AM   #794
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Yeah, I think I know how this one died. :D
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:33 AM   #795
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Term 1 age 22
Learned Demolition-1
Learned Carousing-1
Survival roll 5 + 0 vs 5
Death in service.


Yeah, I think I know how this one died. :D
Me too. From somewhat personal experience.
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:47 AM   #796
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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GURPS front-loads all the complexity.

D&D kicks it down the curb.
Pre-3rd Edition D&D did not have half as much complexity in character creation or advancement as 3rd Edition. Just about the most complex you could do in AD&D 2nd Edition with character building was as a human with good enough stats to dual class.

This definitely gave D&D a leg up in the adoption rates compared to GURPS.
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:53 AM   #797
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Pre-3rd Edition D&D did not have half as much complexity in character creation or advancement as 3rd Edition.
2e with skills and powers was complicated (and broken).
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:55 AM   #798
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
Pre-3rd Edition D&D did not have half as much complexity in character creation or advancement as 3rd Edition. Just about the most complex you could do in AD&D 2nd Edition with character building was as a human with good enough stats to dual class.

This definitely gave D&D a leg up in the adoption rates compared to GURPS.
Maybe, but I'm with Andrew on this one D&D had about a decade headstart on GURPS thats a huge market lead to build your brand and alot of time when the news was talking about it and religious groups fighting it bring it to mainstream consciousness.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:59 PM   #799
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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... and religious groups fighting it bring it to mainstream consciousness.
They thought when you listened to metal music and played D&D, you were a satanist.
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Old 05-23-2019, 03:03 PM   #800
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

And now I have a pastor who plays D&D with his kids. What a long way the hobby has come.
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