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Old 11-20-2017, 07:50 AM   #11
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magesmiley View Post
I'll have to do some digging, but the tournament rules for Car Wars did include a rule where that if you measured you were using your firing action. You could opt not to fire after measuring, though your action was still used.
My memory concurs but I don't remember offhand where this was stated (an ADQ probably.)

I agree it slows the game down and also, your opportunity to fire in the game corresponds to 1/5 of a second so if you want to throw reality in (always a slippery slope) it also makes sense.

Additionally, if you are playing with miniatures (and the larger the scale of the miniature, the more this applies), it is fairly easy to gauge ranges anyway.
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:59 AM   #12
jimmylogan
 
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Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

I play x-wing and there are definitely timing windows where you can and can not measure anything.

As for car Wars- I agree abi e that if you have a grid you can “measure” easily enough so why not always?

I do appreciate the time constraints at a convention. I can’t imagin having a 2 hour slot for car Wars though - you need a minimum of 4, IMHO
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:41 AM   #13
Suncrush
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

I agree that a "no measuring" rule is pretty silly in a game that has a grid printed on the map. I made up marked sighting sticks that could be used to determine line-of-sight and were marked at 1" and then every 4th inch.

But, I play casually in my dining room. If you waste everyone's time overmeasuring, you're just not invited back.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:05 PM   #14
Magesmiley
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Snohomish, WA
Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

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Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Not allowing pre-measuring with CW seems at odds with the grid in the normal game. If you are allowed to count the squares in the paper version, why can't you measure in a 3D version.

Also if you are only controlling a single car sweeping a rule round to see who is in range doesn't seem a massive time sink to me (different when you are controlling dozens of minis agreed). Maneuvering was always the slow bit (and you have to measure that).

We have just accepted that CW takes a long time to play out very little in-game time. That is why we play by e-mail. You can plan and measure to your hearts content in the time it takes to get a return in.

In general I wouldn't agree to no pre-measuring as you are penalising people who are not good at judging distance by eye (so often novice or younger players). It smacks at elitism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmylogan View Post
I play x-wing and there are definitely timing windows where you can and can not measure anything.

As for car Wars- I agree abi e that if you have a grid you can “measure” easily enough so why not always?

I do appreciate the time constraints at a convention. I can’t imagin having a 2 hour slot for car Wars though - you need a minimum of 4, IMHO
A couple of points here worth commenting on:

1. If you have the grid, it is easy to estimate the distance. If you can easily estimate the distance, measuring only when firing isn't really much of a penalty.

2. Being able to estimate the distance without a grid. Yeah, it does favor those who can do that somewhat. It's a useful skill in life, not in just games. However, the critical ones are a car-length and increments of 4 car lengths, which are pretty easy to do.

3. Personally, I don't agree with contention that Car Wars takes a long time to play out. (And I disagree that Car Wars requires a 4-hour time block.) You can do a 2 hour block with 4-8 novice players, if you have: a knowledgeable referee, the right arena, a decent starting speed, good play aids, and predesigned cars built to finish the game in a decent amount of time (and minimize some of the quirkier places in the rules). Removing some of these will increase your play time though.

I'll invite anyone doubting me on item 3 to attend OrcaCon or Dragonflight. :)
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:07 PM   #15
Magesmiley
 
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Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

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Originally Posted by Suncrush View Post
But, I play casually in my dining room. If you waste everyone's time overmeasuring, you're just not invited back.
And this isn't really an option at a convention. Furthermore, the player doing it has probably just soured every new person at the table from playing the game again. Avoiding a bad experience for new players is 100% worth using the rule IMO.
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:02 AM   #16
Blue Ghost
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

I can't be certain, but I think the CW minis game at the SFO Marriot in Burlingame took nearly the full six hours.

Past games I've played using counters ran around the four to six hour time frame, and I think we only ever finished a handful, the rest were mitigated by the Referee. That is it was usually midnight or one-AM, and maybe just over half the cars were destroyed, so the Ref had to call a victor so we could call it a night.

The minis game did seem to go by quicker and smoother than all of the counter CW games I've played.

Most interesting.
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:43 AM   #17
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

You can certainly tailor your CW to make the game quicker.

Getting rid of DWs can speed things up a bit. People can be a bit more wriggly in the arena and it obviates the chance of counters moving and dispute arising.

Not allowing design of cars. This saves a massive amount of time. I suspect 95% of my time spent on CW was designing vehicles. Even if you let players bring pre-designed vehicles you need to validate them and there is always some dispute of interpretation.

Providing pre-designed cars with everything written on a reference sheet that has a standard layout (ideally dry-wipe).

Ideally give everyone an identical car. Not only does this eliminate the potential to give one player a killer-design, but if you can freely describe the features of the car to new players without blowing the gaff on some surprise equipment that one vehicle relies on, you will have a much easier time. You also gain the benefit of the new players being able to correct each other rather than relying on the referee all the time.

Having no rule modifying equipment (or making sure all the rules to be changed are on a card that clearly explains when they change and how).

Having cars with high HC so that if you make a minor mistake you are not penalised for the next half dozen turns or end up crawling around the arena. It may take the same amount of game time moving once per turn as moving 5 times per turn, but it feels much faster.

Giving your cars light weapons and decent armour to reduce the chance of one-shot kills. Of course this increases play time, but there is a higher density of play to time. You could instead have eggshells armed with hammers and speed the game up significantly.

My favoured vehicle would be the "Shotgun Jolly". A subcompact with a vehicular shotgun and about 6 points of armour each side. Fast, agile and only a single dice roll for firing. We fought 6 of them in an arena and it was all over in about 11 seconds game time.

Of course if you modify the game too much (particularly the car design aspect) and it isn't really car wars anymore. I still contend that is a maths heavy slow game that takes about 3-6 hours to play out a fight that isn't pointless.
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:29 AM   #18
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

.
According to 'The State of The Art' Parts 1 & 2 in ADQ #7/2 & #7/3 , the standard vehicle systems sweep for targets anyway .

Imagine it like an early 21st Century's Fighter Planes C°ckpit set up where the Computera prioritize an object in surrounding area to access viable targets .

Even the standard software in a cheap vehicle can do that in Car Wars & thus can giver the Crew targeting window opportunities of as low as 1/10th of a Second . They move seamlessly from 'Driving Mode' to 'Combat Mode' almost seamlessly .

The 'When Duty Calls' fiction from ADQ 6/3 gives a good example of this & the Driver also getting option & feedback from his Vehicle Computer .

I'd reckon with Sensor Triangulation , ranging wouldn't be a problem in standard Car Wars Combat distances ? I saw a device with two small lasers about 50cm apart , on BBC's Tommow's World in the late '90's . It could gauge distances down to about 10cms on the battlefield and didn't have to even 'paint' the target directly ( and thus possie alerting them ) to get near accurate ranging details . They demonstrated on the TV of it taking into account lighting & windspeed to help place hyper accurate Mortar Rounds about 1-2 metres behind buildings & walls etc used as cover .

The M777 very modern computer controlled Howitzer/ Field Gun can perform even more incredible feats . Like firing six rounds on different curving arcs so they ALL hit the target at THE SAME TIME ! And thus it can become an Artillery Battery on it's own !! 8-|

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer

The M777 can also been seen in action on Future Weapons TV program :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bopy0q4bFEE

Of course at Military mile+ ranges , that is where designated Range Finders come into play .
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Last edited by Racer; 11-21-2017 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:09 AM   #19
Parody
 
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Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magesmiley View Post
Personally, I don't agree with contention that Car Wars takes a long time to play out. (And I disagree that Car Wars requires a 4-hour time block.) You can do a 2 hour block with 4-8 novice players, if you have: ...
Yes, you can design Car Wars events to finish in 2 hours. That's not saying most Car Wars games will finish in 2 hours, notably ones that don't have most or all of the things you listed. :)

SPARK allows 6 hours (roughly; we put in a sliding scale for when there aren't many players) for our home games and 4 hours for convention events with only prefab vehicles, us as referees and helpers, etc.

ObTopic: Here's what the last set of tournament rules has to say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CWRQ 4.7, referencing ADQ 10/2
Will measuring the range to a target use up my firing action?
I'll use the following procedure found in ADQ 10/2. "Measuring the range to a target will be a firing action -- the vehicle can fire in the same turn it measures range ONLY at the target it measured to. Example: Car A measures the range to Car B, which is too far away to hit, so Car A saves his ammo and doesn't fire. Car A has still used his firing action, and cannot fire in that turn (unless it is at Car B). Car B measures the distance to an oncoming obstacle, using up his firing action. Car C measures the distance to Car B, then fires at Car B in the same turn."
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:31 AM   #20
Lord Azagthoth
 
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Default Re: minis and "pre-measuring" distance controversy

When I played Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3e, some rules where based upon failing a charge, wasting a turn firing at targets out of reach, etc. It wasn't allowed to measure distance before you declared the action. You were allowed to measure off-table (with you standing between the table and your measurement tape) and make a guess about the distance. But that was part of the fun.

In GURPS, if players want to have an exact distance, they must either have a range finder, or make a successful Perception roll (with all the Range/Speed modifiers). Otherwise, they just don't know for sure if they are withing 1/2D of their weapon's range, outside the opponents sensor's range, etc. For this reason, I never use hex or grid maps. Sometimes I use sketches for relative positions to give the players a rough feeling of the situation.
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