Why Sniper Rifles are so crappy in HT?

[HANS]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

And that is one reason that comparing specific real weapons to the hypothetical product of a generic weapon-modification system doesn't work. I suspect that the price of any weapon issued by a major power in WW II is artificially low, because tens of millions of them were needed in a short period; a hypothetical Fine version with a bipod and fittings for a scope would probably cost more than the design system suggests because the market was smaller.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

High Tech p. 79 limits Very Fine (Accurate) to weapons with a base Accuracy of 4 or better.

Yes. This was deliberately included to prevent people building Acc 4 pistols. Very fine (accurate) can't be added to handguns.

Cheers

HANS

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by HANS

Having a customised AR-15 built to shoot sub-MOA by a professional costs a lot.

Anyone can build a sub-MOA AR type rifle. There isn't any "tuning" or ju-ju to be worked. It is simple parts assembly and takes less than an hour.



.. .. of course, pretty much any heavy barreled 12 series Savage rifle off the shelf at the local wal-mart for $600 or so will likely shoot under MOA with a bit of load development.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by HANS

The sniper rifles in High-Tech are not "crappy" – the generic rules for improving Acc are overly generous. That has two reasons – one, due to the low granularity level of that stat, two, because players love to customize and had to be provided a rule to allow it. Realistically, there should be a different customisation scale for every single weapon, listing different cost modifiers etc. as well as individual limits (eg, certain guns cannot be made very fine (accurate)). However, that’s ridiculously complicated.

Many players also love supernatural powers, this is not an excuse for putting in the book as if it was a realistic rule.

Of course I know that every weapon would have a different cost modifier, what I'm asking is why is so cheap and generous, not attacking the granularity of GURPS.

Originally Posted by HANS

Because the fantasy rifles you describe above don't exist?

According to HT, there isn't any realistic prohibition against those rifles, and any character in a realistic setting could buy a fine or very fine rifle with a scope and bipod assuming they're at the right TL.

Originally Posted by HANS

Having a customised AR-15 built to shoot sub-MOA by a professional costs a lot. These chaps (http://www.accurate-ar15.com/) offer builds at around $2,000-2,300. That’s about 4.2 times the generic Cost for an M16/AR-15 in High-Tech, which I call close enough to 5 times (High-Tech, p. 79).

Again, I'm not questioning that a weapon can be five times as expensive, I'm questioning if it can be five times as expensive AND have +2 Acc.
So, in your opinion, those AR have Acc of 7(5 of the AR-15 +2 for being very fine)?

[DouglasCole]

As Hans says, Acc is not strictly MoA.

The rule in Tactical Shooting does have implications for approximately the MoA delivered by a certain Acc rifle. This table summarizes what those implications are. Edit: I went back and tweaked the numbers for less false precision.

Acc	MoA	25-yd Group
0	72	18"
1	36	9"
2	18	4.5"
3	7	1.8"
4	3.5	
5	1.4	
6	0.75 (3/4 MoA)
7	0.33	(1/3 MoA)
8	0.2	 (1/5 MoA)
9	0.06	 (1/15 MoA)

[Jonas]

Interesting chart. :)

I do have to ask though what would you suggest as a more 'realistic' set of houserules be for improving a weapons accuracy? Also I notice on the chart that for the bottom half its lacking any grouping sizes, I'm assuming by that point its mostly irrelevant due to their small pattern?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Jonas

Interesting chart. :)

I do have to ask though what would you suggest as a more 'realistic' set of houserules be for improving a weapons accuracy? Also I notice on the chart that for the bottom half its lacking any grouping sizes, I'm assuming by that point its mostly irrelevant due to their small pattern?

The lack of group sizes is really that 25-yard groups are commonly quoted for pistols. I will see gun rags state, for example, that a 4" group is adequate (or whatever) for a self-defense pistol, and then you do the quick "multiply by about 4" math to get to MoA, which is basically "size of group at 100yds." Since you can't pistols more than Acc 4 either, I dropped it as irrelevant.

As far as more-realistic rules, Hans is correct when he notes that the limiting factor here is +1 Acc or skill is something like "hit the same target 50% farther away." That is, as they say, a Big Frickin' Deal.

The best you can probably do is make your improvement cost geometric (or something) with Acc AND the percentage improvement in MoA. But ultimately, with the granularity of GURPS, I think you're bound to be frustrated with the attempt.

[Jonas]

I'll trust your judgment on it not being worth the effort and stick with the raw regarding firearm improvements then. I am curious however if its possible to actually have the equivalent of 'Acc 3+' pistols in real life?

Also if I can ask has there been any major updates to your quite wonderful ballistics sheet? Which I still say is a product I'd be willing to pay for from e23...

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Jonas

I am curious however if its possible to actually have the equivalent of 'Acc 3+' pistols in real life?

Yep. If you equate Acc directly to accuracy.

By the chart Acc 4 is 3.5 MOA, Les Baer offers 1911 clones with an accuracy guarantee of up to about 3 MOA for example.
http://www.lesbaer.com/UM5.html


Pistols intended for some metallic silhouette pistol competition classes are about as accurate as any firearm can possibly be and weigh under 7lbs.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Jonas

Also if I can ask has there been any major updates to your quite wonderful ballistics sheet? Which I still say is a product I'd be willing to pay for from e23...

I think at some point I added a page for Hal that was just a minimalistic "if you know KE and caliber, what's the damage" type of thing. I don't know if that was updated anywhere.

Beyond that, nothing really. I've had my mind embedded in grappling and fatigue recently.

[Jonas]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I think at some point I added a page for Hal that was just a minimalistic "if you know KE and caliber, what's the damage" type of thing. I don't know if that was updated anywhere.

Beyond that, nothing really. I've had my mind embedded in grappling and fatigue recently.

Understandable as bills come before 'hobby' so to speak. I do have to ask what the chances are, if any that we could see something like it be offered on e23? I won't lie I enjoy the current 'price' so to speak but you clearly put a lot of work into it and rightly should be compensated for it. Though I do understand if its not something you really care to or can mention.

My apologies to the OP for the slight tangential discussion.