Why Sniper Rifles are so crappy in HT?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by lexington

Attaching a scope to a Garand? I hope you have a machine shop to drill holes into the stock or build yourself a mount to attach it.

It's not particularly unusual.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&sa...IaXj0QGz7qT1Bg

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

It's not particularly unusual.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&sa...IaXj0QGz7qT1Bg

Due to the Number of Garands produced for WWII (and then sold as surplus, given as foreign aid, etc) I would assume you could find an example of an M-1 with any conceivable and physcially possible modification out there somewhere.

Much the same would go for the Lee Enfield SMLE, the Mauser 98, Springfield '03 etc, etc....

[doulos05]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Always thought it was, can you please tell me What is Acc then?

Acc is the GURPS stat which is added to a character's skill when he takes an Aim maneuver prior to firing. ;)

It accounts for grip, "accuracy" (as professional shooters would recognize the word, which would likely refer to strictly to how many MOA there are across a grouping of a given shot-size when the weapon is fired from locked down, pre-sighted rest on a bench), weight, trigger mechanics, and a host of other factors inherent to the weapon and it's accessories which combine to influence a shot.

This is much like the distinction between RCL and Recoil or IQ and intelligence.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

I didn't said it is impossible to get a weapon five times as expensive, I said that I think it is impossible to get a weapon five times as expensive with +2 Acc, and by that I mean: +4CF, +2 Acc.
So, what I think that this pistol doesn't have is Acc 4, probably Acc 3 only.
Do you know what is the MoA of this pistol? does it get anywhere near a M4 Carbine or AK-47?

Most of these tuned up service pistols can do 2"-4" at 50 yards, so call them 4 to 8 MOA pistols.

Les Baer offers up to a 1.5" at 50 yards guarantee on some of their 1911s which is about as accurate as a good AK or levergun.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Due to the Number of Garands produced for WWII (and then sold as surplus, given as foreign aid, etc) I would assume you could find an example of an M-1 with any conceivable and physcially possible modification out there somewhere.

Much the same would go for the Lee Enfield SMLE, the Mauser 98, Springfield '03 etc, etc....

And that is one reason that comparing specific real weapons to the hypothetical product of a generic weapon-modification system doesn't work. I suspect that the price of any weapon issued by a major power in WW II is artificially low, because tens of millions of them were needed in a short period; a hypothetical Fine version with a bipod and fittings for a scope would probably cost more than the design system suggests because the market was smaller.

High Tech p. 79 limits Very Fine (Accurate) to weapons with a base Accuracy of 4 or better.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Most of these tuned up service pistols can do 2"-4" at 50 yards, so call them 4 to 8 MOA pistols.

Are these figures theoretical ones based on a weapon clamped to a rest, or actual ones based on a skilled human holding the weapon? I'm no shooter, but I doubt that any handgun can be as accurate in practice as a decent rifle.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I'm no shooter, but I doubt that any handgun can be as accurate in practice as a decent rifle.

The 50 yard target in Bullseye competition is 8". In order to be competitive a shooter needs to have a pistol that will reliably shoot groups under 3" at that range.

...and they shoot it with one hand.

[HANS]

The sniper rifles in High-Tech are not "crappy" – the generic rules for improving Acc are overly generous. That has two reasons – one, due to the low granularity level of that stat, two, because players love to customize and had to be provided a rule to allow it. Realistically, there should be a different customisation scale for every single weapon, listing different cost modifiers etc. as well as individual limits (eg, certain guns cannot be made very fine (accurate)). However, that’s ridiculously complicated.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

What do you think of changing the rules of firearm quality to make fine rifles heavier and more expensive?

Nothing.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Is realistic to entirely prohibit very fine firearms(I doubt that IRL you can make the AK, the M4 or the P90 as accurate as a PSG or an AI AW without increased weight or bulk, don't matter how much you pay).

In as far that not every gun can be improved to a certain level, yes. This actually is already in the rules, which impose limits on improvements to guns that don't have a minimum Acc (High-Tech, p. 79).

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

If the Firearm Quality rules are realistic, can anyone tell me why people use rifles like the AI or the PSG instead of much better rifles here mentioned?

Because the fantasy rifles you describe above don't exist?

Cheers

HANS

[HANS]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

A PSG1 isn't a particularly accurate rifle.

The H&K PSG1 is guaranteed to shoot 50-round groups of 80mm at 300m. That’s 0.92 MOA. The comparable KAC M110 is only guaranteed to shoot 1.5 MOA, and note that most American rifles are only tested for 5-round or even 3-round groups (the smaller the group, the easier).

Of course, any decent bolt-action sniper rifle and some tuned 5.56×45mm semiautomatics shoot better than this – but for a rifle developed in the early 1980s, using an action that isn't really suited to high accuracy, this is pretty good.

Cheers

HANS

[HANS]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Always thought it was, can you please tell me What is Acc then?

Acc is not a measure of MOA. It’s an abstracted stat to work within the parameters of the Ranged Combat rules.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Also, is there at least one very fine firearm that is not bigger or bulkier than the original model that costs around five times the original weapon?(Ex-An AR-15 with Acc7 and cost of $3000 or less compared to the M16 Acc5 cost of $550), Or a fine firearm with the same requirements above(same weight and bulk, cost at maximum of double the original cost) All the examples i found increase the cost for a fine firearm by at least 3 times, and there is no examples of very fine weapons.

If not an example is possible, how do they calculated the cost for making a weapon fine or very fine?

Having a customised AR-15 built to shoot sub-MOA by a professional costs a lot. These chaps (http://www.accurate-ar15.com/) offer builds at around $2,000-2,300. That’s about 4.2 times the generic Cost for an M16/AR-15 in High-Tech, which I call close enough to 5 times (High-Tech, p. 79).

Cheers

HANS