Why Sniper Rifles are so crappy in HT?

[gilbertocarlos]

According to HT, most Sniper rifles are really expensive and heavy, but adding fine/very fine to rifles is cheap.

Let's take the the PSG rifle and compare it against the M1 Garand with the following mods:
Fine(the PSG is fine by default, we are just making it even), with a Fixed-Power Scope (TL6). X6 magnification. and a Bipod (TL6).

If you have access to TL8 equipment, you can instead use a Variable-Power Scope and a TL8 bipod(increase cost by $500, Acc to 7+3 and remove 2lbs).


PSG vs Garand

TL 8 vs TL 6 - Technically a Tie, with edge to the Garand for being available before
Ammo: 7.62¥51mm vs .30-06 - A tie(same weight and cost)
Damage 7d pi vs 7d+1 - Almost a tie.
Acc 6+2 vs 6+2 - Tie
Range 1100/4400 vs 1100/4500 - Garand has +100 of max, but it's a tie.
Weight 18.5/0.7 vs 13.6/0.5(11.6 at TL8) Garand weights 5lbs less(7lb at TL8), ammo is 30% lighter
RoF 3 vs 3 - Tie
Shots 5+1(3) vs 8(3) - Garand have 3 bullets of advantage
ST 10B† vs 10B† - Te
Bulk -6 vs -6 - Tie
Recoil 3 vs 3 - Tie
Cost $9,100/$26 vs $1250($1750 at TL8) - With the price of one PSG, you can buy 7 garands, you can make the garand very fine, and it will still be 3 times cheaper than the PSG.
LC 3 vs 3 - Tie

The Garand is lighter, have more ammo, can equip a squad with the same cost of 1 PSG.
So, with this in view, why anyone would use a PSG instead of a fine garand?


Example 2:
The Accuracy International Vs a Fine M14(since the AI is also fine) with a variable power scope and a bipod(Both TL7).


TL8 vs 7 - Technically a Tie, with edge to the M14 for being available before
Ammo:7.62¥51mm vs 7.62¥51mm - Same
Damage 7d pi vs 7d pi - Same
Acc 6+3 vs 6+3 - Same
Range 1000/4200 vs 1000/4200 - Same
Weight 15/1 vs 13.4/1.6(12.4/1.6 at TL8) - the M14 is 1.6lbs(2.6 at TL8) lighter, with magazines being 0.6lbs heavier.
Shots 10+1(3) vs 20+1(3) - The 0.6lbs heavier of the M14 compensate here, they have double ammo, meaning that a soldier with a M14 only need to carry half as many magazines.
ST 11B† vs 10B† - The M14 has a small edge
Bulk -6 vs -6 - Same
Recoil 3 vs 3 - Same
Cost $4,700/$50 vs $1750/$31($1900/$31 at TL 8) -As before, the price of the modified rifle is much cheaper, the M14 cost's less than 40% of the AI, even very fine it's still 1k cheaper.

Same deal as before, the M14 is lighter, have more ammo and is cheaper than the AI, his only disadvantage is the magazine, with is 60% heavier, but also carries double ammo.
So, why anyone would use a AI instead of a fine M14?


What do you think of changing the rules of firearm quality to make fine rifles heavier and more expensive?
Something like:
Fine: +20% weight, +2CF
Very Fine: +50% weight, +9CF

Is realistic to entirely prohibit very fine firearms(I doubt that IRL you can make the AK, the M4 or the P90 as accurate as a PSG or an AI AW without increased weight or bulk, don't matter how much you pay).

If the Firearm Quality rules are realistic, can anyone tell me why people use rifles like the AI or the PSG instead of much better rifles here mentioned?

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

If the Firearm Quality rules are realistic, can anyone tell me why people use rifles like the AI or the PSG instead of much better rifles here mentioned?

They aren't particularly realistic. You can only do such much with the range of numbers that GURPS has to work with.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

I doubt that IRL you can make the AK, the M4 or the P90 as accurate as a PSG or an AI AW without increased weight or bulk, don't matter how much you pay

A PSG1 isn't a particularly accurate rifle. Anyone with opposable thumbs and a box full of appropriate parts can assemble an AR type rifle capable of equal or better accuracy from scratch in less than an hour.
Serious DItD rifles like AIs,GPs,Surgeons etc are in a whole 'nother realm compared to everything else, OTOH.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

So, why anyone would use a AI instead of a fine M14?

Realistically?

M14/M1As are terrible optics platforms and the most finely tuned (and fragile) M14/M1A tuned for Camp Perry competition is less accurate than an off the shelf AI-AW.

[lexington]

Attaching a scope to a Garand? I hope you have a machine shop to drill holes into the stock or build yourself a mount to attach it.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

They aren't particularly realistic. You can only do such much with the range of numbers that GURPS has to work with.

But why it's so cheap to increase the quality compared to the very high price of rifles with are already fine?

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

A PSG1 isn't a particularly accurate rifle. Anyone with opposable thumbs and a box full of appropriate parts can assemble an AR type rifle capable of equal or better accuracy from scratch in less than an hour.
Serious DItD rifles like AIs,GPs,Surgeons etc are in a whole 'nother realm compared to everything else, OTOH.

Well, GURPS give Acc 6, but let's say the Accuracy International, you can't make an AK as accurate as the Accuracy International without increasing lenght and weight.
The AR is an Acc 5 by default, I'm talking about Acc 4 rifles.

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

M14/M1As are terrible optics platforms and the most finely tuned (and fragile) M14/M1A tuned for Camp Perry competition is less accurate than an off the shelf AI-AW.

Well, GURPS give Acc 7 to a very fine M14 vs Acc 6 of the AI-AW, Acc 6 can be reasonable given the granularity, but Acc 7 doesn't.

Also, should fine and very fine rifles get a penalty to HT? I think they should, since most fine rifles are carried in bags, while an Assault Rifle can be buried in the sand and keep working.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by lexington

Attaching a scope to a Garand? I hope you have a machine shop to drill holes into the stock or build yourself a mount to attach it.

It isn't THAT big of a deal but most of the solutions are sub-optimal.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...nt&groupid=348

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Also, should fine and very fine rifles get a penalty to HT?

Realistically?

Yes and no. Talking about precession rifles specifically, a fiberglass bedded M14/M1A in a walnut stock and a fragile bridge type scope mount might go all cattywumpus if you drop it on carpet or undergoes a rapid change in altitude or humidity. OTOH, a rifle that is mounted in a solid chassis (like an AI) or integral bedding block and is actually intended to have optics on it is basically indestructible.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Realistically?

Yes and no. Talking about precession rifles specifically, a fiberglass bedded M14/M1A in a walnut stock and a fragile bridge type scope mount might go all cattywumpus if you drop it on carpet or undergoes a rapid change in altitude or humidity. OTOH, a rifle that is mounted in a solid chassis (like an AI) or integral bedding block and is actually intended to have optics on it is basically indestructible.

Rephrasing my question then, Should rifles purposefully made into fine/very fine, without weight increase have HT penalty? An AI-AW wouldn't, but a fine/very fine M14 would.

[Langy]

Expensive rifles are kept in bags not because they won't work if you mistreat them, but because they won't work as well. In other words, a HT roll to check if a rifle loses its accurization or not after being mistreated could be called for, but the weapon is still likely to fire bullets/etc.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Langy

Expensive rifles are kept in bags not because they won't work if you mistreat them, but because they won't work as well. In other words, a HT roll to check if a rifle loses its accurization or not after being mistreated could be called for, but the weapon is still likely to fire bullets/etc.

Well, thats an argument for carrying every firearm in a bag, not only an expensive rifle.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Rephrasing my question then, Should rifles purposefully made into fine/very fine, without weight increase have HT penalty?

No. Not necessarily.

A good (Kreiger, Satern or such) barrel weighs exactly the same as a crappy barrel of the same profile. A perfectly tuned trigger isn't any less durable than a crappy one. A fine stock might be much more damage resistant and lighter, aluminum chassis vs birch wood for instance.