[HT] Small Calibre firepower

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

, but I should probably note that there are also examples of pi++ weapons (Such as .45 HP) glancing off the skull because they didn't penetrate, while much smaller and more energetic but pi (no-plus) would have pretty much emptied out the skull.

Do you have any documentation of any bullets "glancing" off the skull? It's the sort of thing I would class as purely anecdotal and extremely unlikely to be true.

The human skull may have DR2 v. fists and it might have that much v. baseball bats but I'd rate it as DR0 v. any bullet or even shotgun pellet. If it was DR2 a minimum of 1 in 6 OO buck pellets (1D+1) would fail to penetrate. .22s would be similar.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Do you have any documentation of any bullets "glancing" off the skull? It's the sort of thing I would class as purely anecdotal and extremely unlikely to be true.

When I was in Iraq, I was on a mission where a Marine in another company was shot in the head (GURPS skull) by a 7.62mm Dragonov. The round penetrated his Kevlar helmet but failed to penetrate his skull. It actually rode over his skull leaving a cool scar and then fell out of the back of the helmet.

Weirdly I just met, at work, another former Marine from a different unit that knew that guy later. The USMC is a small small world.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Do you have any documentation of any bullets "glancing" off the skull? It's the sort of thing I would class as purely anecdotal and extremely unlikely to be true.

I've come across numerous articles and other documented cases of it happening, though I certainly never kept track of them. It pops up in the news every now and then. .22 short is the most common, but pretty much any round will do so if they've lost enough energy and/or hit at a shallow enough of an angle. I've seen a surprising number of .45 wounds. I recall one news article where the police responded to a domestic disturbance to find that the one person had been shot in the forehead with a .45... and who was perfectly conscious and very agitated at his wife for shooting him in the head.

Just found out that Manfred Von Richthofen (The Red Barron) survived a "machine gun" round from a British bomber deflecting off his head, which likely meant a .303 British round. Not without injury, however.

It might not be common, but it happens.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I've never even heard of it. It's not in any of the Alternate GURPS articles, or on either Tbone's or PK's websites. It didn't come up in the Tactical Shooting playtest. I don't do it that way, and have never even considered it.

Stacked modifiers are discussed in my article on calculating bullet damage, I think.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Do you have any documentation of any bullets "glancing" off the skull? It's the sort of thing I would class as purely anecdotal and extremely unlikely to be true.

I've seen it in both people and critters.

Related:
On one of my first EMS calls we picked up an member of an urban youth organization for disaffected African-American males that had been shot in the thigh. The bullet (.380,9mm or similar bore size) entered his leg and traveled down his femur, blew up his knee and punched through his foot.

He said that the guy who shot him was aiming for his junk.


http://books.google.com/books?id=hrp...0skull&f=false

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

DR0 v. any bullet or even shotgun pellet.

Shotgun-to-the-head suicide survival is terrifyingly common.

Seen that first hand too. *shudder*


Usually some guy sticks a 12 gauge full of cheapo 7 1/2 under his chin and proceeds to remove his tongue, jaw and all the soft tissue that constitutes what we call face.

Penetration is going to be determined by the mass and velocity of each individual pellet so unless loaded with large shot, shotguns produce very survivable wounds.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I've never even heard of it. It's not in any of the Alternate GURPS articles, or on either Tbone's or PK's websites. It didn't come up in the Tactical Shooting playtest. I don't do it that way, and have never even considered it.

Never heard of it? I'm sure I've seen it on the forums more than once. Doesn't seem like a great idea to me...

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Weirdly I just met, at work, another former Marine from a different unit that knew that guy later. The USMC is a small small world.

Hunh. I have a first cousin (that graduated on the 12th) that told me that story 3rd hand.

I wonder if it was re. the same guy.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Shotgun-to-the-head suicide survival is terrifyingly common.

Indeed.

Most impressive (And kind of scary) story I've heard of is of a guy that took 3 shots with a pump-action shotgun to kill himself... and he walked about 150 meters between the first and third shot! (Although I think two of those, including the final shot, were to the chest)

I think part of the problem in GURPS terms is that any blow that fails to penetrate the skull does zero damage. Perhaps it'd be better to treat such hits as hitting the face, instead?

Although for some reason, this is making me think of an amusing Murphy under the "graze" optional rule from Alternate GURPS I. Using that rule, a .22LR to the torso that scores a grazing hit will do 50% more injury than a good hit! The neck is even worse!

[ronom]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Do you have any documentation of any bullets "glancing" off the skull? It's the sort of thing I would class as purely anecdotal and extremely unlikely to be true.

The human skull may have DR2 v. fists and it might have that much v. baseball bats but I'd rate it as DR0 v. any bullet or even shotgun pellet. If it was DR2 a minimum of 1 in 6 OO buck pellets (1D+1) would fail to penetrate. .22s would be similar.

The .38 Spl. FMJ that was used by the military and NYPD did this alot. I think it was a cone shape that needed to hit square, any angle and it glanced off. The NY Stakeout Squad from the '80's carried .45's as a result to comply with the FMJ policy.