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Old 01-17-2013, 07:50 AM   #41
ClayDowling
 
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Default Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

I had the same notion as others about just setting up a small machine shop, so I did a little research. A machine shop is fine for making the receiver. Apparently the machinery to accurately build barrels is a much larger issue, and the machinery is specialized, so importing it is going to raise serious eyebrows.

My understanding is that barrels are a wear item. I know Beretta recommends replacing the barrel on the M92 after 10,000 rounds. The part is also quite easy to replace, it's literally a drop in part, no need even to thread it into place. One of the reasons I bought one, because it makes cleaning really easy.

I also know from friends who served in the military that with heavy use barrels degrade accuracy greatly. One never liked being issued a colt 1911 when he was on guard duty, because they were heavily worn and not accurate to any kind of distance. If he'd ever needed to use it, he'd have to wait for his opponent to be dangerously close.

This link was especially informative for this research: http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:04 AM   #42
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Default Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

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Originally Posted by ClayDowling View Post
I had the same notion as others about just setting up a small machine shop, so I did a little research. A machine shop is fine for making the receiver. Apparently the machinery to accurately build barrels is a much larger issue, and the machinery is specialized, so importing it is going to raise serious eyebrows.
It is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that they could have gotten their hands on an old, forgotten MoD Whitney & Pratt B-series Hydraulic rifling machine. Maybe it would be in poor repair and lack vital parts, but given that some barrelmakers apparently build their own machines for cut rifling using a CNC machine, I should think making parts to repair one is fairly practical to do.

If that's too huge a task (not to mention too much machine for what will probably not exceed 20-30 rifle barrels per year at present), they could buy or build a smaller cut rifling or a newer, handier, button rifling machine. Buy if a licensed gunsmith can do so without too much attention, build it with their CNC machines if buying would mean too much potential publicity or just that his name entered the consciousness of local police as a source of weapons built from scratch.

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Originally Posted by ClayDowling View Post
My understanding is that barrels are a wear item. I know Beretta recommends replacing the barrel on the M92 after 10,000 rounds. The part is also quite easy to replace, it's literally a drop in part, no need even to thread it into place. One of the reasons I bought one, because it makes cleaning really easy.
The link you posted mentions only rifle barrels. Presumably, the machinery needed for much shorter barrels is less cumbersome.

I wonder what kind of equipment you'd need to be able to make ca 20 Browning Hi-Power barrels per year, maybe ten revolver barrels for Webleys and S&Ws and the odd barrel for another pistol model.

Then there are SMG barrels. What kind of equipment do you need for them? In the case of MP5s, I could believe it was very similar to that of rifles. A less accurate weapon like the Sterling, however, might not be quite so demanding. In any case, I imagine that they'd need some 20 SMG barrels per year.

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Originally Posted by ClayDowling View Post
I also know from friends who served in the military that with heavy use barrels degrade accuracy greatly. One never liked being issued a colt 1911 when he was on guard duty, because they were heavily worn and not accurate to any kind of distance. If he'd ever needed to use it, he'd have to wait for his opponent to be dangerously close.
That's a concern for the Browning Hi-Powers as well and probably the SLRs, frankly. They'll want to change barrels before fielding them, if possible.

And given that if the ammunition issue is solvable, the primary weapons of the Rangers will see 200-300 rounds go through per week in training, I think that they'd need a new barrel once a year. At least every other year.

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This link was especially informative for this research: http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm
It was, very much so. Thank you.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:11 PM   #43
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If these monster hunters work for the Queen wouldn't it make sense for her agents to simply back channel some firearms.

Guns aren't super common in the UK but they are out there and a covert government agency would have no trouble getting the permits.

Regardless likely there would be two classes, "quasi legal" weapons like double shotguns and some bolt action rifles and maybe big bore African Game rifles like 600 Nitro double (had with a FAC)

The other class would be illegal arms. I'd suggest Russian arms are comparatively easy to get (AK and Makarovs) with ammo from the continent.

Alternately you could go domestic and they'd just be taken from military stockpiles somewhere, reported as destroyed or paperwork lost and viola.

You could get FN or Enfield rifles with ball, AP, tracer and incendiary and maybe some rebuilt Browning High Powers as well.

Revolvers would be more useful though since weird ammo probably won't feed in a Browning. In such cases refurbished Enfield, S&W and Webley revolvers from a stash somewhere could be issued.

lastly, if the conspiracy goes deep enough The Home Secretary (IIRC) could simply issue a waiver and have it classified under the Official Secrets Act. That way you could have pretty near anything up to a Lara Croft sized armory.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:08 PM   #44
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Still, from picture size comparisons, it looks like the Browning Hi-Power is more or less as big as a Beretta 92, albeit slightly thinner.
The 92/96s are huuuge pistols.

The BHP is closer in size to a G19 but carries much easier IWB since they are both thin and round.


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Is it really easier and more effective to make a pistol from scratch than spend two days modifying one?
Yes. While the CNC is running the operator can go do something else. And doesn't require a master welder which a completely separate skillset.

..and since the machine is set up to do an operation, don't do it once, do it twenty times.



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Why do military and police armouries sometimes bother to do extensive modifications on old ones, like rechambering them or suchlike, then?
They don't.

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That looks like they went with the 'building a whole new weapon based on the Browning' route. Is that a false impression on my part?
That is correct. They were already making BHP clones. It is easier to make them in the desired abbreviated form than modify them.



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So if you need one hundred Bulk -1 weapons and have access only to Bulk -2 semi-autos and very old Bulk -2 revolvers, it's clearly easier to modify the revolvers?
Lord yes.


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Ok. Which would you think was more practical as the basis for a 'Fitzed' self-defence weapon in the modern day; a S&W Model 10 .38/200 made during WWII or a Webley IV or VI in .38/200 made sometimes between 1930-1945?
The S&W. Though the .38/200/.38S&W cartridge has been wholly obsolete for decades.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
If that's too huge a task (not to mention too much machine for what will probably not exceed 20-30 rifle barrels per year at present), they could buy or build a smaller cut rifling or a newer, handier, button rifling machine. .
Note that if you have a barrel making machine you probably don't need to ditch whole firearms after traceable incidents. New barrel makes for new bullet stria.

Although I would expect incidents in the UK involving military-type firearms to be so conspicuous that it wouldn't make much difference. For example and from recent news blurbs:Chicago is the US poster child for firearms crime these days but last year though the siezed c.750 illegal frearms only 4% of those were "assualt rifles".

I would expect that that military-grade weapons would be far more conspicuous i9n UK crime statistics. I think your group needs the Permanent Secretary to the Home Minister to have gone to Eton with the head of your group or something like that. Said conveninet firiend could bury a lot of incident reports under the Official Secrets Act and "MIWhatever v. Terrorists" seems so much more likely than "secret rogue group v. vampires" to whoever is likely to file the first crime scene reports.

You don't really seem to want to simplify the problem but if you did you could arm the group with SAS hand-me-downs. At least US Special Forces upgrade theri gear cosntantly and the precise IDs of such weapons were all classified "Burn Before Reading" in the first place. "Fell off the back of a Black lorry" would be all the explanation you needed for a _lot_ of things.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:47 PM   #46
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If these monster hunters work for the Queen wouldn't it make sense for her agents to simply back channel some firearms.
If by 'back channel', you mean having friendly foreign monarch purchase British-made armaments or firearms phased out in UK service, with the proper end-user certificates and everything, and then contrive to have empty crates shipped to abroad and the actual weapons moved to a secret location, that's what they'll do for as many of them as they get away with.

This will attract much less attention, of course, if the monarch in question is used to buying such weapons for his armed forces and police. In that case, he merely has to agree to order slightly more than he needs, with the understanding that by thus helping the British divert weapons to spots where legal end-user certificates may not be available*.

It is because of this method of acquisition that I'm primarily interested in weapons that are produced in factories in the UK or were produced there at some point between 1992 to the modern day. Weapons that were common among UK services but have been phased out are also good candidates, as many of those actually were sold to the Gulf.

*A cover story that many of the Gulf governments would find nothing strange about, as they've done this on behalf of Whitehall often enough. As long as the conspiracy can arrange for the negotiation to be handled by an ex-military or intelligence type who can pretend to be still official without it occuring to the foreign government to question him, it ought to work out fine. In any case, Sultan Qaboos and some of his fellow monarchs have a very friendly relationship with some people involved in the conspiracy and have the most affectionate fraternal relationship with HM, so even if they suspected something, they'd probably keep her secrets.

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Regardless likely there would be two classes, "quasi legal" weapons like double shotguns and some bolt action rifles and maybe big bore African Game rifles like 600 Nitro double (had with a FAC)
I was considering big bore doubles, in particular for those members of the conspiracy with their own magical powers, as high-technology interferes with their use. One problem, however, is how expensive they are. You can arm a platoon of Rangers for what one of them costs, almost. Another is that if you shoot one at a scene where a human is injured or killed, it's a somewhat distinctive piece of forensic evidence. On the other hand, there are upwards of 50,000 such weapons in private hands in the UK, so it's not as if it would immediately lead to any one suspect.

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The other class would be illegal arms. I'd suggest Russian arms are comparatively easy to get (AK and Makarovs) with ammo from the continent.
Probably it is riskier to have contact with criminal organisations than it is to arrange for the weapons on the grey market.

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Alternately you could go domestic and they'd just be taken from military stockpiles somewhere, reported as destroyed or paperwork lost and viola.
And so they do. Every time they get a chance to do so without taking an unjustifiable risk of discovery. Much of their weaponry will have been accumulated through several opportunistic acquisition, taking advantage of a well-placed contact at the right time.

This is another reason why I doubt very much they'll be lucky enough to have a high degree of standarisation. Bluntly speaking, for much of their early history, there was no plan to run direct action black ops team. Any weapons acquired in the early period of their existence would have been meant for self-defence for investigators in the conspiracy; for use by a covert planning and training facility developing paranormal tactics in anticipation of serving as a cadre for the armed forces once the existence of the supernatural is revealed*; or to arm a backup team of unofficial royal bodyguards who are supernatural-savvy.

The Rangers are a development that not all the members of the conspiracy are comfortable with and they have existed only from 2005. I should think that much of their weaponry is repurposed from the earlier days. They may have successfully obtained some weapons after that time, of course, but not enough to arm all of them, let alone the part-time Ranger-qualified people that sometimes join them or the investigators and academics who sometimes need to carry for self-protection.

*So far, unofficial attempts by well-placed (if expendable should the worst happen) members to get Whitehall to acknowledge it have not proven successful.

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Originally Posted by SimonAce View Post
You could get FN or Enfield rifles with ball, AP, tracer and incendiary and maybe some rebuilt Browning High Powers as well.

Revolvers would be more useful though since weird ammo probably won't feed in a Browning. In such cases refurbished Enfield, S&W and Webley revolvers from a stash somewhere could be issued.
I imagine that all of these will form a part of their stockpile; as mentioned before in the thread.

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Originally Posted by SimonAce View Post
Guns aren't super common in the UK but they are out there and a covert government agency would have no trouble getting the permits.
[...]
lastly, if the conspiracy goes deep enough The Home Secretary (IIRC) could simply issue a waiver and have it classified under the Official Secrets Act. That way you could have pretty near anything up to a Lara Croft sized armory.
Even if the conspiracy reached an individual with the theoretical power to issue such licences, there is a risk that a license which allows too much military weaponry would attract attention from other civil servants and police. Not to mention that if there are only a few such weapons in civilian hands, any crime committed with one will focus the beady-eyed gaze of official people on the holders of the permit. Far better to have the weapon safely away in the Gulf (on paper at any rate).
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:51 PM   #47
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Note that if you have a barrel making machine you probably don't need to ditch whole firearms after traceable incidents. New barrel makes for new bullet stria.
*Coff coff*
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Some localities, particularly Maryland, have attempted to build up a large database of "fingerprints"; in the case of the Maryland law, all new firearms sales must provide a fired case from the firearm in question to the Maryland State Police, who photograph it and log the information in a database. The Maryland State Police wrote a report critical of the program and asking the Maryland General Assembly to disband it, since it was expensive and had not contributed to solving a single crime.[3] Subsequently however, the database did provide evidence used to obtain one murder conviction at an estimated cost of 2.6 million dollars per conviction.[4]

A California Department of Justice survey, using 742 guns used by the California Highway Patrol as a test bed, showed very poor results; even with such a limited database, less than 70% of cases of the same make as the "fingerprint" case yielded the correct gun in the top 15 matches; when a different make of ammunition was used, the success rate dropped to less than 40%.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:00 PM   #48
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The 92/96s are huuuge pistols.
Let me confirm that. You could conceal it under a really heavy parka if you were broad of shoulder and narrow of waist. The upside is that there's enough metal in the frame that if you need to beat somebody to death with it, you won't feel under-equipped.

It's made for open carry pretty much exclusively.

If you need concealed carry and prefer the Beretta design choices, they do have smaller guns designed for concealed carry, but smaller is definitely a relative term with Beretta. I'm planning to do some field research on that this weekend, because I do like the Beretta designs.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:03 PM   #49
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*Coff coff*
Wonder how much it varies with the type of gun and ammunition. Any bullet that typically isn't even bullet-shaped after firing seems improbable for matching.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:17 PM   #50
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Wonder how much it varies with the type of gun and ammunition. Any bullet that typically isn't even bullet-shaped after firing seems improbable for matching.
The quote seemed to be talking about cases, rather than bullets.

I thought the model of gun could be determined by case markings, but only sometimes the exact gun (e.g., when wear or other factors have created a unique set of markings). Matching the rifling marks on a bullet is more precise and unique, though I don't know how intact the bullet has to be.

In any case, the wise covert operative won't leave shell casings lying around. Changing barrels would be a good idea too.

Or use a shotgun -- no rifling, no markings, right? Or do they still leave some ballistic evidence?
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