New Reality Seeds

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

If Poland didn't exist anymore then the French and the British would probably have backed a Germany that wanted to throw down with the Soviet Union to the hilt.

Yep, that's one of the possibilities. Or they just sell lots of stuff to Germany while remaining "Neutral". World War II looks very different.

Of course, if the soviets hold Poland, Germany's civil unrest has a much higher probability of a communist victory. I don't know if the economy will look as good as the third reich, but a united Germany and Russia in 1940 will be tough to tackle.

There will be a war coming in either scenario, and who wins it will have massive repercussions. And beyond the political knock-on effects, there are also cultural ones. So there is a whole family of alternates.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

The Azores, Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard?

Madeira, actually, if I remember the lore correctly.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

You know in Le Morte D'Arthur by the end of the cycle Morgan has reconciled with Arthur anyway. That's why when he is mortally wounded she leads the the ladies who come to take him away to be stored for later use.

Yes, but I read the older works first. And I also read large amounts of both literary studies of Arthurian works and works trying to analyze the mythic elements. Thus my take on Arthurian myth is only weakly connected to Mallory.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I've recently found out about the polish-soviet war. It looks like a fountain of potential seeds. Essentially, the polish soviet war determined what eastern europe's borders looked like between the two world wars, and the war appears to be fairly close.

Working out the ideas will take time though. There are so many different ways this can go.

Excellent Slavic mythic elements to both aide and hinder the Table Champions in their struggle against Baba Yaga.

[nothri]

Infinity reserves the "Pharaoh" designation for parallels in which the society of the Ancient Egyptians heavily influences history and current world events (not unlike the "Rome" designate features Roman dominated parallels or "Lenin" deals with Communist worlds). Infinity has learned to approach these worlds with extreme caution. Much like the Britannica parallels are presumed to host a major Centrum operation, the Pharaoh worlds invariably seem infested with Lodges of The Cabal. The reason behind this seems to be based around the Cabal's own mythology (Egypt played a profound role in the formation of the society, so the story goes) and practical- mystically speaking, Egypt was one of the most potent and powerful nations of the ancient world and worlds in which the Pharaoh still reigns tend to accrue particularly potent artifacts and mana rich locations.

Pharaoh-1 (Quantum 5, Current year 2260 BC) Imhotep, scribe and inventor of the pyramid tomb, brought this world into the iron age with the invention of a primitive blast furnace. Iron allowed the pharaohs to claim more resources and slave labor than in our history, aggrandizing Egypt and themselves with monuments and tombs on a scale even greater than on Homeline while devastating and draining the surrounding regions. This did not prevent the first intermediate period where local nomarchs superseded the power of the Pharaoh. Indeed, while Herakleopolis eventually reunited the country it has failed to truly centralize the government as such. Egypt has become a sort of aristocratic democracy, in which the nomarchs select a Pharaoh to rule in purely spiritual capacity while smaller states attend to their own wars and affairs. Technology has inched into TL-3 and TL-4 in some areas, the competition within the nomarch states created a primitive sort of renaissance. The Cabal plays power games in the inner courts of this world, while trying to reconcile the apparent absence of the legendary Nicrotis from history.

Pharaoh-2 (Quantum 4, Current year 608 BC) Senusret III, arguably the greatest pharaoh of the Middle kingdom, conquered Nubia and made several reforms to the government of the two kingdoms. On this Earth he followed up those achievements with an invasion of the Levant, Anatolia, and the Greek citystates. In the process, the Hyksos were one hundreds of nomadic tribes pushed from the region (their descendants appear to be the ruling power of a vast steppe empire that presently is on the verge of a Chinese conquest). Egyptians fortunes have ebbed and waned since then. At present it controls the whole of North Africa and Arabia. Clashes with the Assyrians have ebbed as their current line of kings seem more interested in pushing further into the Indian subcontinent and putting down the Median and Persian uprisings than renew hostilities in the West. Greco-Egyptian successor states currently via with Etruscans and Celts for influence in Europe. Of concern is the rising power of the Minoan Empire, whose trade and exploration successes have rapidly begun to exceed the achievements of any known parallel in which the culture survives. Infinity suspects a hidden hand feeding the Minoans advances in boating and sailing technology. Cliodynamic projections suggest at the present rate the Minoans will be making contact with the Americas in the next decade, with the typical result of mass infection and death in the native populations. Negotiations have begun with the Wheel of Ptah in the Egyptian capital at Itjtawy for a joint operation to intervene in the matter. The Cabal fears a rogue Black Lodge is seeking to use the massive loss of life to fuel a particularly foul rite of necromancy.

Pharaoh-3 is, full disclosure, the subject of a full article I intend to submit to Pyramid Magazine assuming I can finish it and the issue in question has a theme that fits. (Q3, current year 1922 AD) reality in which Akhenaten's elder brother survives a brush with death and becomes Pharaoh. One of his first acts is to appoint his brother the high priest of Amun. Akhenaten's vision of atenism thus becomes a reform movement with the cult of Amun rather than a competing heresy, while his brother's wiser governance allows the New Kingdom Empire his fathers built to maintain their borders and eventually annex the Mitanni and portions of the Assyrian and Hittite Empires. Expansion down the Nile and into lower Nubia provide new resources and farmlands, which allow the already rich kingdom to weather the Bronze Age collapse even more effectively and allow them to dominate the region for centuries thereafter. The Empire falls eventually, but Atenism has become so ingrained in the successor states that the restoration of the Pharaoh is inevitable. Atenism supersedes and takes on the role of other forms of monotheism (due to the lack of a Babalonian captivity, for example, Abrahamic religions never evolve into monotheism, while Vedic religion in India becomes "contaminated" with Egyptian and Median ideas and produces schools of thought unique to the timeline rather than traditional Hinduism and Buddhism), experiencing schisms and evolution like all faiths. At present the Egyptian Empire extends as far East into portions of the Indian subcontinent, as far West as North Africa, Iberia, and large portions of Gaul and Germania, with substantial overseas colonies in lower Hau-Akhet ("that which lies behind the horizon", e.g. North America). One consequence of Egyptian philosophy playing such a grand role in this world is a preservation of past traditions as a holy necessity. Thus the oldest cultures of the world (Egyptian and rival states) are idealized and preserved as much as possible. The British Isles have a thriving Greek and Celtic population upholding Minoan, Mycennean, and intermixed Egyptian and Celtic traditions, while the great kingdoms of Keta maintain the ancient traditions of the Hittites while they oversee an Empire that stretches from Anatolia up into and across the Asian steppes. Naharin, based in Sri Lanka and claiming satraps throughout east india and lower Asia allies and competes with Egypt and the Nubian matriarchs who rule Australia (Ta-Nefer in this world). Infinity has their hands full as usual on this parallel. France, who originally reported the timeline, seems to be involved in some major operation in Carthage and isn't being forecoming as to the purpose. Unauthorized research and tomb robbing are a major problem, especially operations funded by the Duncorne Foundation. Rampant desertification in Africa, Europe and America occupy the attention of the Miracle Workers. And then of course there is the Cabal. Reports suggest that the Midwinter Aton has made contact with Reich-5 personnel and are together penetrating the the Keta Empire and recruiting Hittite warriors to compliment their forces on Friederich. Even more worrisome are the Sons of Imhotep, who are boasting of some grandiose ritual powered by the innumerable sacred tombs and temples spread across the planet to "heal the fractures in reality, and bring all worlds together as one".

Pharaoh-4 (Q7, 259 AD) diverged in 246 BC with the conquests of Ptolemy III, who followed up the conquests he made in conventional history with the annexation of Babylon and a string of victories across the middle east that made him the defacto ruler of the Seleucid Empire (unlike in our history, he refused to return his conquests in exchange for conceptions and large sums). In order to maintain control of such a vast territory, his successor Ptolemy IV Philopator was obliged to raise a tremendous army of mostly Egyptian conscripts. When rebellion came under Pharaoh Ankhwennefer (Ankhmakis) he had at his disposal a well trained, heavily armed legion of loyal Egyptians at his back. The Egyptians secured their control of Egypt (allowing the Ptolemies to remain as a "co-regent" figurehead). Over the next few centuries they would put down repeated rebellions by Seulicids, Parthians, and Bactrians, clash with and eventually conquer the last of the Hellene states in Greece, and foil an attempt at invasion by Rome. This last saw the exile of the last Ptolemy, Cleopatra, who nonetheless earned favor with her Caesar when her spies exposed a plot to assassinate the general turned emperor. Her son Caesarion was the first in a new line of Ptolemaic Romans. The two empires have known a stalemate for the past several centuries, each dividing up control of the Mediterranean down the middle and expanding in opposite directions. Today Rome controls East Africa and large parts of Europe, having annexed Britain, Gaul and Germania. Egypt continues to thrive on trade, Hellenic technology, and a large army, having maintained control of the Hellenistic world and completed annexation of the India subcontinent. Unusually, Centrum has attempted to intervene in this timeline for reasons all their own. Their inexperience with magic shows, as their operations have routinely fallen apart (mostly focusing on a pro-Roman conquest of their rival empire). While the Patrolmen monitoring the situation are practically giddy with Schadenfreude at the enemy predicament, even the most vindictive among the ICops does admit it would be foolish to sit back and allow Centrum's losing war to take its course. At least, not until the Patrol learns exactly what exactly their long time enemies are so concerned about that they would put themselves on such an uneven playing field in order to engage the Cabal.

[a humble lich]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Yep, that's one of the possibilities. Or they just sell lots of stuff to Germany while remaining "Neutral". World War II looks very different.

Of course, if the soviets hold Poland, Germany's civil unrest has a much higher probability of a communist victory. I don't know if the economy will look as good as the third reich, but a united Germany and Russia in 1940 will be tough to tackle.

There will be a war coming in either scenario, and who wins it will have massive repercussions. And beyond the political knock-on effects, there are also cultural ones. So there is a whole family of alternates.

A different possibility would be is the Polish did better and managed to keep a hold of the territory it gained early on in the war. In particular Minsk and Kiev ended up in Polish hands. A larger Poland might be able to hold off the Nazi invasion longer than in our timeline, perhaps long enough for the British and French to enter the war in earnest to protect Poland. A French/British invasion of Western Germany in mid September 1939 could lead to a very different war.

[Astromancer]

Having seen something on Atlantropa it occured to me it would make an interesting basis for a parallel. If you saw this video on youtube you realize that Atlantropa would be something of an ecological disaster, that would require a utopia to build, and then, would destroy that utopia.

As not all utopias are good ideas, in fact Thomas Moore may have been asking a hyper subversive question here, could we live in a society based on the values we think we hold? Let's allow the the Germans a successful revolt. Britain and France dissolve in class warfare and become over time part of a European wide soviet. The USA still goes New Deal but without Stalinism, there's no cold war so America stays New Deal and uninvolved in world affairs. The Pan Euro-Soviet pretty much rules all of Eurasia and Africa. Australia, New Zealand, and the Americas stay out. The Pan Euro Soviets don't challenge this because they choose to solve internal issues first. Atlantropa is one of the ways the Pan Euro-Soviets choose to deal with internal issues.

Given the effective founders of the Pan Euro-Soviet includes Lenin this society is no model of humane values. Given that Rosa Luxemburg outlives Lenin in this world and crushes Stalin, at bitter cost to herself, the Pan Euro-Soviet isn't hell either. Big projects, lofty ideals, and striving to be truly utopian, were attempts to square the circle. Sorgel's vision checked all the boxes.

The Atlantropa project's main dams were finished by 1970, it's now local year 2016 on this Q6 parallel. Sea level in the Mediterranian basin is down about 35 meters. Desalinization in the newly revealed lands is proving a serious problem. Meanwhile, the artificial inland seas in Africa are displacing large populations and leading to vast bitter revolts. The fact that the USA has just elected Sen. B. Obama to the presidency (the progress of Civil Rights was slower in this parallel's USA, but steadier) is putting the lie to the Pan Euro-Soviet's claims of being above and beyond Racism.

Between the expensive Atlantropa project failing to provide the promised levels of hydropower and cheap farmland and both the cost overruns and beginnings of climate change (draining the Mediterranian brings the Sahara north), enormous stresses are falling on the Pan Euro-Soviet society. These stresses pull in predators.

Pan Euro-Soviet society looks beautiful to Centrum, almost where it needs to be. Still, the brutal stresses of colonial war, the expenses of empire, and the Atlantropa project going sour give Centrum agents inroads to power. On the other claw, the Cabal adores all the archeological goodies exposed by the receding Mediterranian. Both Homeline and the Cabal want to see these finds, the difference is the Cabal needs to be the only ones to see some of the finds, EVER! Meanwhile, there are plenty of Swagmen after fine antiquities too, they'd also kill to get the prizes.

The Americas in this world are pleasant enough. Because of local circumstances, the New Deal/Great Society paradigm is still dominant. Think an American Social Democratic society moving steadily toward greater egalitarianism. This is lovely for most people. A small lodge of Midwinter Aton composed of elite Wall Street brokers and bankers. They seek to break this America at any cost. They plan to rebuild the ruins in their own Social Darwinist image. The Cabal hates them, not for the genocidal violence, they don't mind that sort of thing, it's their alignment with dark powers. That is in very bad taste you see.

Latin America is peaceful, prosperous, and democratic, in this world. This makes archeology in Latin America wonderfully easy compared to many other parallels. Both the Cabal and Homeline love this. Plunging this world into war would upset many powerful mages and well-connected scholars. Failing to plunge this world into war would do the same. Have fun.

[Astromancer]

An interesting historical change point is Sir Walter Raleigh's Irish estate during his lifetime. From his estate near Youghal in County Cork, Raleigh introduced the potato into Ireland, among other things like cherries. If different potatoes were introduced, or perhaps multiple types of potatoes, the Great Hunger might never have happened. An Ireland without the Great Hunger would mean a radically altered history for the USA, the UK, and the British Empire.

Given the importance of the potato to modern European history, Raleigh's estate near Youghal is a massively underused historical changepoint.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by a humble lich

A different possibility would be is the Polish did better and managed to keep a hold of the territory it gained early on in the war. In particular Minsk and Kiev ended up in Polish hands. A larger Poland might be able to hold off the Nazi invasion longer than in our timeline, perhaps long enough for the British and French to enter the war in earnest to protect Poland. A French/British invasion of Western Germany in mid September 1939 could lead to a very different war.

An aggressive polish victory unrestrained or even supported by foreign pressure may or may not knock the Bolsheviks out of power. Eastern Europe is pretty much a mess of wars at that point, and the Pole's victory and subsequent treaty kind of settled most of the borders. If this instead prolongs the fighting, you might end up with a white Russia instead of a red one. And that effects the conflict in Germany, so you might not have Communists OR Nazis in power.

Which isn't to say it will be all cheery. You're likely to get some ruthless human beings in control out of that period no matter how you play with the history.

I don't know how well a bigger Poland translates into holding out longer against its foes. In the opening stages of WWII, it seemed the only thing that could slow the Germans was land.

[Astromancer]

One of the key problems to building a powerful state in Eastern Europe is that the area is caught being the Ottoman state, the Russian Empire, and the Holy Roman Empire. It's hard to get breathing space.

The best bet for a powerful Poland would require a weak divided Germany and the other empires focused elsewhere. The very fact that Poland was on the mend is why Prussia, Russia, and Austria, broke Poland up and took the land.

Any future for the Polish state would require A) weakening the nobility, including loss of the Liberum Veto, B) changes in land tenure laws that would allow peasants and townsmen to own land, and C) some survival of a central authority as a real power after the end of the Jagiellonian Dynasty.

If Poland had formed a strong state, Prussia and probably Sweden and Russia, wouldn't be powers until the Polish state was gone/collapsed.