Lunion - implied history and inferences

[hal]

Hello Folks,
I'm splitting off the discussion on Lunion from the Surface area thread simply because I don't think people are going to want to do a search on Lunion and find the surface area thread, or open the surface area thread to see Lunion ;)

That having been said (and it is partially MY fault that it started to drift as it did), I'm opening up this thread.

For the record - Hans is officially on my ignore list - something that once I institute, I never remove the individual from it. As a consequence, I won't be responding to Han's comments - even though it may appear rude. For that, I apologize.

In any event - much of the settlement pattern for the Spinward Marches is left vague and less than informative. We have to look at the data that is present, and often times, wonder if we missed something somewhere. In other instances, we have to look at the fact that BEHIND THE CLAW is not considered to be canon for the Traveller Universe - and that even the original data on worlds may no longer be canon due to the possible changes pending to the Second Survey as relates to T5.

In any event, there has been sufficient dissatisfaction with the SPINWARD MARCHES CAMPAIGN data detailing the suns/stars of the various world - and the fact that these data points are not possible using the rules for SCOUTS or even the world building rules for MEGATRAVELLER - that people have been and are agitating for a revision to the spinward marches data.

Even GURPS TRAVELLER FIRST IN makes reference to the fact that certain worlds are not viable under the current science of astrophysics - and that the GM has a choice between using the Traveller canon, or using FIRST in, or modifying FIRST IN for use with the data.

My solution, as might be guessed by looking at my old website from almost 10 years ago - was to change the data until it fit the astrophysics and make things viable rather than adhere to broken canon (ie, material that doesn't even fit SCOUTS, let alone anything else).

So, my goal is to eventually detail Lunion sufficiently to satisfy my own needs for my own campaign universe. Rather than throw out everything from canon, and re-invent the wheel, I'm using what I can, throwing out what I dislike, and making the game my own for my own players. That means for instance, having a garden world with a population of 10 people - won't happen. On worlds such as Lunion, I will be using other data to determine the stars/suns relevant to the world instead of the older data from THE SPINWARD MARCHES campaign. Eventually, if SECOND SURVEY is ever released officially, we'll see the proposed changes being made to even the older venerable material where some worlds might have their diameter's changed etc.

[hal]

In any event, canon material written by writers in the past, would have us believe that the Spinward Marches region had colonization begin approximately 60 years after the formulation of the Third Imperium. This at a time when the Imperium didn't hold full control over the regions closest to the Capital. The statement that the Spinward Marches had begin to be settled in the year 60, might beg the question "settled by whom?"

When you read the Milieu Zero Campaign, we find that about the time of the birth of the Imperium, that it was expanding out at a rate of about a 1/2 parsec per year (see page 26, right column under expansion).

The Imperial Encyclopedia for Megatraveller, indicates that year 60 is when the colonization of the Spinward Marches begins (see page 7).

So what are we to make of all this? First, we know that Lunion's world is essentially a garden world with liquid seas, abundant oxygen in its dense atmosphere, and that its atmosphere is tainted in some fashion. We also know that it has a population rated at the billion level per SPINWARD MARCHES supplement 3, and that by the time of THE SPINWARD MARCHES campaign, it was determined that it's significant value was 8, meaning a population around 8 Billion.

So, what other data exists out there, that is "canonical" and does not offer much in the way of controversy (ie conflicting data/canon)?

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Hal has stated that he is ignoring me. Well, that's his affair. I'm still going to comment on whatever catches my attention, apparently not for Hal's benefit, but then for the benefit of anyone else that may take an interest.

Originally Posted by hal

In any event, canon material written by writers in the past, would have us believe that the Spinward Marches region had colonization begin approximately 60 years after the formulation of the Third Imperium. This at a time when the Imperium didn't hold full control over the regions closest to the Capital. The statement that the Spinward Marches had begin to be settled in the year 60, might beg the question "settled by whom?"

People from the Imperium. The accounts we have are Imperio-centric. My take is that up until around 200 settlers were mostly people trying to get away from the Imperium and commercial enterprises. Around 200 the Imperium began an official effort to expand into the Marches.

When you read the Milieu Zero Campaign, we find that about the time of the birth of the Imperium, that it was expanding out at a rate of about a 1/2 parsec per year (see page 26, right column under expansion).

The Imperial Encyclopedia for Megatraveller, indicates that year 60 is when the colonization of the Spinward Marches begins (see page 7).

I suggested an explanation for the puzzling forwardness of Imperial expansion through Corridor to Robert Eaglestone when he was writing Deneb. I don't know if he used my idea (so I won't expound it here), but if not, I assume he has come up with an explanation of his own. So perhaps someone with a copy of MgT:Deneb could let us know what it says on the subject?

So what are we to make of all this? First, we know that Lunion's world is essentially a garden world with liquid seas, abundant oxygen in its dense atmosphere, and that its atmosphere is tainted in some fashion.

We know that it's tainted in some fashion in 1105. If it is an industrial taint (as BtC claims), Lunion wouldn't have a tainted atmosphere in Milieu 0.


Hans

[hal]

In reading the material online at the wiki, I was directed to read Tarsus and see what was in there. It too indicates that the first settlements of the Spinward Marches begins in 60, but that the first contact with Sword Worlders doesn't occur until 13 years later. Since Lunion is a mere 5 parsecs away from IRON, one would generally expect that contact with the Sword Worlder's might have occurred about the same time as when Lunion may have been colonized. So that puts the first settlement date sometime in the 70's at its earliest by inference. Am looking at more info where I can find it. I wish I knew where the UWP for the first survey came from!

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by hal

In reading the material online at the wiki, I was directed to read Tarsus and see what was in there. It too indicates that the first settlements of the Spinward Marches begins in 60, but that the first contact with Sword Worlders doesn't occur until 13 years later. Since Lunion is a mere 5 parsecs away from IRON, one would generally expect that contact with the Sword Worlder's might have occurred about the same time as when Lunion may have been colonized. So that puts the first settlement date sometime in the 70's at its earliest by inference.

There are three different canonical dates for first contact with the Sword Worlds: 53, 73, and 147. My explanation is that they are for three different kinds of first contact: 53: FC with Imperial Scouts, 73: First trade route, 147: First formal diplomatic contact.

Am looking at more info where I can find it. I wish I knew where the UWP for the first survey came from!

Almost certainly made up by whoever wrote that bit of the entry.


Hans

[Drifter]

Are the Missouri Archive data for the First Survey considered canon?

I assume the T4 First Survey book is canon, but if I remember there were significant problems with those sector lists. I've never seen that book and I think that data was 'fixed' in a second edition, but I'm not sure.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Are the Missouri Archive data for the First Survey considered canon?

I assume the T4 First Survey book is canon, but if I remember there were significant problems with those sector lists. I've never seen that book and I think that data was 'fixed' in a second edition, but I'm not sure.

It appears that whomever gets selected to handle the programming needs for generating large swaths of planetary data or UWP's - ends up being incapable of spotting problems before the file is published (witness THE SPINWARD MARCHES CAMPAIGN and FIRST SURVEY the book). However, when I look at the PDF's of that book, it doesn't show the spinward marches data in it - which makes me wonder where in the heck the "first survey" data published at the Wiki came from. If the Missouri Archives, that would make sense, but I don't think it is official material at this point in time. <shrug>

[tjoneslo]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Are the Missouri Archive data for the First Survey considered canon?

I assume the T4 First Survey book is canon, but if I remember there were significant problems with those sector lists. I've never seen that book and I think that data was 'fixed' in a second edition, but I'm not sure.

There never was a second edition of the First Survey, and the Missouri Archive data archive is not canon. The trouble with tracking the source of this material down is the HIWG authors (and others of that era) swapped material with great enthusiasm, and the early web page aggregations were not as rigorous about separating the canon from the non-canon, or about tracking sources.

As the history of the wiki page shows, the first survey UWP was generated by Hans. You'll have to ask him how he came up with the values.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by tjoneslo

As the history of the wiki page shows, the first survey UWP was generated by Hans. You'll have to ask him how he came up with the values.

The current First Survey UWP was generated by me. The original First Survey UWP, whice I believe is the one under discussion, was entered by Alan1958 back in 2007.

I've added a metadata entry about how the FS data is non-canonical and how I came up with it.


Hans

[hal]

Originally Posted by tjoneslo

There never was a second edition of the First Survey, and the Missouri Archive data archive is not canon. The trouble with tracking the source of this material down is the HIWG authors (and others of that era) swapped material with great enthusiasm, and the early web page aggregations were not as rigorous about separating the canon from the non-canon, or about tracking sources.

As the history of the wiki page shows, the first survey UWP was generated by Hans. You'll have to ask him how he came up with the values.

About the only "canon" I can find regarding certain aspects of the Traveller Universe and its tech level achievements, stems from MEGATRAVELLER in which it indicates the approximate tech levels of the Imperium at a given point in time. It appears that the Imperium reaches TL 15 in some regions, by around 1000 (Solomani Rim War). TL 14 was achieved approximately 700. TL 13 at about 300. The problem with those guidelines as given from Referee Sourcebook page 34, is that these are presumed to be the highest achieved tech levels at the various worlds that are (as of 1105), currently TL 15. All other worlds that are lagging now, could presumably (but not absolutely) have been lagging as badly back in those days, as the worlds lag in 1105.

If we go by T5, page 511 of the PDF shows us that TL 13 is achieved about 550. So, different books, different results :(

As I look elsewhere in the T5 PDF, I note on page 603, that it specifies that Imperial Max TL D (TL 13) is at 550. So I'm guessing that while these may NOT be when tech levels are achieved per se, they do indicate what the max level of TL is at a given time.