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Old 09-17-2020, 06:52 AM   #191
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
You are talking about Influence Skills, which are resisted by Will. I am talking about general Reaction rolls. There is a massive difference conceptually and mechanically.
Charisma is influence just like Mind Control. It's just a game mechanic that decides it's passive vs active, especially when it's part of a mind control power.

Consider the psi that broadcasts waves of pleasure that make people like them or like being around them and buys that ability as Charisma 10 (Psi -10%, Switchable +10%). It's now a conscious choice and described as telepathic persuasion. Isn't that manipulation?

Even more fundamental is that the target's actions are being affected by the Super to do things that would haven't have done without an amazing reaction roll, resisted will roll, or other game roll. When the behavioral change is severe enough to make most people act in ways they would not normally do, the targets won't care if you "just" have Charisma instead of Mind Control.
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Old 09-17-2020, 07:06 AM   #192
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

Well, is it coercive when a mundane character with Allure 4, Charisma 5, Appearance (Very Handsome), and Voice talks to someone attracted to them? They have a +17 reaction bonus, meaning that their usually minimum reaction is Excellent, but they are not doing anything other than talking. The people who are attracted to them will find themselves doing anything to get attention after they interact with them. The individual does not have Mind Control (or any other super ability), but they are probably able to get much better results than most people using Mind Control.

Mind Control is different than Charisma because it is control rather than influence. Now, Suggestion does blur the edges, but it is still coercive (Switchable would not make Charisma coercive, no more than actively talking to someone, but Glamour would because there is a resistance roll involved). Without a resistance roll, Charisma is just Charisma, it is a measure of passive influence rather than active control, and anyone who falls under its influence will always like the character in question. A character with Charisma 20 (Super, -10%) [90] is probably close to having control, but they still cannot make people do anything they do not want to do on some level, especially if they have Intolerance or predetermined reactions.

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 09-17-2020 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 09-17-2020, 07:25 AM   #193
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Well, is it coercive when a mundane character with Allure 4, Charisma 5, Appearance (Very Handsome), and Voice talks to someone attracted to them? They have a +17 reaction bonus, meaning that their usually minimum reaction is Excellent, but they are not doing anything other than talking. The people who are attracted to them will find themselves doing anything to get attention after they interact wi them. The individual does not have Mind Control (or any other super ability), but they are probably able to get much better results than most people using Mind Control.
I've clarified - if at any point such abilities are used to influence or manipulate behavior, the authorities aren't likely to distinguish between "abused my mind control powers, abused my authority, and abused by super animal magnetism"

Anyway, reactions rolls are more of a GM option since they can fiat that a specific reaction will occur regardless or that modifiers will total -5 no matter who you are or what you have. There is no way a player can guarantee an Excellent reaction from everyone or even any specific individual unless they are engaging in mind control. Also note, that even if "raw" reaction rolls are used, Influence skills are a straight substitute for them for many types of requests. If you're trying to seduce someone the game treats using a sex appeal contest and a sex appeal reaction roll the same way.

Quote:
Without a resistance roll, Charisma is just Charisma, it is a measure of passive influence rather than active control, and anyone who falls under its influence will always like the character in question.
Resistance rolls are a game mechanic. Unless the Police can break the 4th wall, they won't know if it was a resisted skill or a reaction roll being used - either of which can be used interchangeably at the PCs option per Campaigns.

Last edited by naloth; 09-17-2020 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:10 AM   #194
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

A resisted ability is different than a resisted skill. As someone who teaches criminal justice in the USA, there is a massive difference between forcing someone to commit an act through putting a gun at their head (Mind Control) versus asking politely (Charisma). In the former case, the individual acting is usually not considered culpable, though the person controlling them is (in the case of actions against the individual, they are considered victims of a crime). In the latter case though, they are considered to have equal or greater culpability than the person influencing them (and anything they do with the influencer is usually considered consensual). It would not matter if the influence comes from Appearance, Charisma, Status, Voice, etc., as long as it is not a form of control (and as long as the individual does not have control over the person they are influencing), it will likely not be an additional crime.

Anyway, it was just meant to be one example. Please feel free to share your own thoughts of the realistic impacts of abilities. For example, is there actually much of a place for DR or Innate Attack when technological solutions are vastly cheaper?
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:46 AM   #195
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
A resisted ability is different than a resisted skill. As someone who teaches criminal justice in the USA, there is a massive difference between forcing someone to commit an act through putting a gun at their head (Mind Control) versus asking politely (Charisma).
Again, how do you know they are just asking politely? An exotic manipulation ability that expressly allows you to have control of the subject or the reaction is just that - manipulation.

Since we can't see what's on the character sheet, but we have established what it's pretty obvious when someone is "super" it's not much of a leap to lump Mr I can make people do what I ask with my amazing charm with Mr I can make people do what I want with my Purple Man abilities. Most authorities wouldn't be able to distinguish exactly what made the target act that way.

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long as it is not a form of control (and as long as the individual does not have control over the person they are influencing), it will likely not be an additional crime.
Ding - in this game all of those constitute a way to manipulate an NPC. Appearance manipulates reactions for the opposite sex. Voice influences anyone that can hear you. Status can be used to exert social privilege. Charisma makes all your requests more likely to be granted. Skills can be used to seduce someone.

Quote:
Anyway, it was just meant to be one example. Please feel free to share your own thoughts of the realistic impacts of abilities. For example, is there actually much of a place for DR or Innate Attack when technological solutions are vastly cheaper?
You're relating money to points? GMs have unlimited point and money budgets, so there's no need to choose the most game efficient solution for NPCs. That's usually only something that matters to players while designing characters, and even then it's more of a balance mechanism so that all the PCs have similar utility.

Anyway, there is always utility for built-in advantages. DR also stacks so you can have more than technology alone would allow. Advantages typically can't be taken away like equipment and can often do things that tech cannot. Innate attacks have surprise value the first time.

The first question would be if 1% Supers would actually make much of a difference on the day to day life of most people. If the powers didn't work on economic levels, it would end up a lot like the Marvel or DC universe where the news and events are more interesting but most people lead similar lives to ours. Any powers that were abundant enough to make an economic difference would probably be specific to that power and that industry.

If healers handled serious injuries, doctors would focus on preventative medicine. Surgery might faze out altogether doing away with quite a few related professions.

Crime investigation would change if you could hire reliable psychics that could step you through what evidence you need to look at.

Cyber psis might cause a "battlestar galactia" type fear of networking or they might help the growth and development of AI in ways that we can't predict.

Weather control might allow climate changes to moderate natural disasters, or it might need to new wars of who is stealing the rain.
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:27 AM   #196
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

Intuition (Inspired, +100%; No Signature, Mystical, +25%; Reliable 10, +50%; Super, -10%) [40] could be quite problematic for stock trading regulations because it would be nearly undetectable (a smart stock trader would deliberately lose money on some trades while a very smart stock trader would have a computer randomly select half of their trades every day).
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:49 AM   #197
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Intuition (Inspired, +100%; No Signature, Mystical, +25%; Reliable 10, +50%; Super, -10%) [40] could be quite problematic for stock trading regulations because it would be nearly undetectable (a smart stock trader would deliberately lose money on some trades while a very smart stock trader would have a computer randomly select half of their trades every day).
There are better uses for that power, and really if they aren't especially greedy they would be like anyone else that gets hunches or stock "tips".

Take for example someone that can control plants on a large scale (Poison Ivy?). That character could go a number of directions:
- Making hybrid plants for food and medicine.
- Increasing crop yields
- Crime fighter with a plant motif
- Eco terrorist that things plants are better than people

Weather control can be used to help people at the expense of others (rain from one area usually takes from another), to terrorize people, or to just ease serious weather.
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Old 09-17-2020, 11:26 AM   #198
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Well, is it coercive when a mundane character with Allure 4, Charisma 5, Appearance (Very Handsome), and Voice talks to someone attracted to them? They have a +17 reaction bonus,
That's like asking about a mundane human with a Strength of 35. There are no mundane humans with a Strength of 35.

Quote:
Mind Control is different than Charisma because it is control rather than influence. Now, Suggestion does blur the edges, but it is still coercive (Switchable would not make Charisma coercive, no more than actively talking to someone, but Glamour would because there is a resistance roll involved). Without a resistance roll, Charisma is just Charisma,
And I'd say that makes it not a superpower and therefore not something that being blessed with superpowers can give you. It's just the product of having an actually appealing personality.
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:18 PM   #199
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

+17 reaction bonus is quite possible and quite realistic. A president could easily have +17 from Appearance, Charisma, Reputation, Status, Voice, etc. Other people of significance could have similar reaction modifiers (at least for limited groups). For example, a character with Appearance (Handsome), Born Entertainer 4, Reputation+4 (Fans; All of the time), Status 3, and Voice would receive a +17 from their fans who find them sexual attractive. That would have been the type of reaction bonus experienced by Elvis Presley or Tom Hanks during their career highs.

Anything with a power modifier is a powered ability, so Charisma with Super (-10%) would be a super ability. You could also have Appearance, Voice, etc. also as super abilities if you wanted. The only issue is that anything that supresses super abilities would negate your reaction bonus.

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 09-17-2020 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:23 PM   #200
Otaku
 
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Default Re: (Another) World of Superhumans

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Anyway, it was just meant to be one example. Please feel free to share your own thoughts of the realistic impacts of abilities. For example, is there actually much of a place for DR or Innate Attack when technological solutions are vastly cheaper?
"Vastly cheaper" is in terms of Character Points or money, correct? I can't find it with a (relatively) quick look through Powers, but I could have sworn there was a rule that discounted powers if they could be adequately supplied via technology; if your version didn't have all the limitations (or Limitations) of the technology, that is largely what your CP was covering.

Which gets to my second point; when it is inherent to you, that can be quite the advantage in and of itself. There's going to be a market for discrete Supers, even if they're of the weaker variety. I can't tell if it the demand for such Supers will be higher in the law-abiding or law-breaking side of things when it comes to this.
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :)
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