TL8 Gadgeteers and TL12 Genetic Engineering

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I wouldn't let a TL8 Gadgeteer use TL12 Genetic Engineering. Its cinematic enough that I'd just say "Tell me what you want". I might consult bio-tech in order to build requested features or say whats easy or hard, but I wouldn't say "You have access to all TL12 Genetic Engineering"

I would not either. I would allow TL+2 at maximum in exchange for at least three levels of an appropriate talent and world-class skill value. However I think the user who asks has already made the decision so my opinion in that sense is irrelevant.

[AlexanderHowl]

Experimental Procedures are for government superagents benefitting from genetic modifications one TL early, not gadgeteers or inventors developing such technology. The rules for inventor costs are found in Biotech (pp. 17-18). The rules for gadgeteer costs are found in Campaigns (pp. 475-477). The example in Campaigns (pp. 475-476) explicitly shows that gadgeteers pay only 15x as much for an invention at +3 TL, not 1,000x as much.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

It is known as inherent logic. If by TL8 you can discover things from TL9 at ×10 cost and by TL9 you can discover things from TL10 at ×10 cost, then by TL8 you can discover things from TL10 at ×(10×10) cost. What is so hard to understand if it is just basic arithmetics? Do you really need to work in your maths so much or are you just trying to apply your own version of the affirmation of the consequent? Because in this specific case it is not an affirmation of the consequent, it is a linear equation which automatically and inherently destroys any other points of view unless you attack its basic foundations. Even if the paragraph does not make it possible to develop technologies over TL+1 we discussed this from the assumption that it is possible to do it, and its cost is not going to be any cheaper/more costly because potato so please justify your points with the rules of the game.

I don't think I need to do that. What I've said is simply that you haven't justified your point with the rules of the game, because the rule you are citing does not address boosts of more than +1 TL. You're choosing to extrapolate, and that's one possible way to make up a new rule, but the rules that exist don't say you can extrapolate.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Experimental Procedures are for government superagents benefitting from genetic modifications one TL early, not gadgeteers or inventors developing such technology. The rules for inventor costs are found in Biotech (pp. 17-18). The rules for gadgeteer costs are found in Campaigns (pp. 475-477). The example in Campaigns (pp. 475-476) explicitly shows that gadgeteers pay only 15x as much for an invention at +3 TL, not 1,000x as much.

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't think I need to do that. What I've said is simply that you haven't justified your point with the rules of the game, because the rule you are citing does not address boosts of more than +1 TL. You're choosing to extrapolate, and that's one possible way to make up a new rule, but the rules that exist don't say you can extrapolate.

I need to disagree with AlexanderHowl for the previously stated reasons, and just by looking the prices for computer hardware or software I need to point out how a 15x cost for an invention at +3 TL would be ridiculous.

About the extrapolation note by whswhs it is true that it is necessary to check that the linear equation that I pose is valid because it is not mathematically stated in the book, but in accordance to zero order logic and the other rules of the game the conclusion is true.

[AlexanderHowl]

We are talking about Gadgeteer and Invention rules that have been established for over a decade. A TL6 Gadgeteer could potentially produce TL9 megacomputers for only x15 the cost (even though they are x10 million times more powerful and possess x100 million times the storage capacity), it is just that no one will be likely able to operate or repair them because they will suffer a -15(!) to skill. A TL9 character who discovered the computer in a TL9 campaign might be mystified by the baroque nature of the design, but they would likely suffer only familiarity penalties (rather than TL penalties) because they would be dealing with a rather unique computer language.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

About the extrapolation note by whswhs it is true that it is necessary to check that the linear equation that I pose is valid because it is not mathematically stated in the book, but in accordance to zero order logic and the other rules of the game the conclusion is true.

I have no idea what "zero order logic" is supposed to mean. It is not stated in the rules that you can do a thing at all; it doesn't seem to me that that implies that any rule for the cost of doing it is "logically valid."

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I have no idea what "zero order logic" is supposed to mean. It is not stated in the rules that you can do a thing at all; it doesn't seem to me that that implies that any rule for the cost of doing it is "logically valid."

You may know it as propositional logic.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

You may know it as propositional logic.

There seems to be no question of propositional logic applying here. The statement in the rules is "If you create an invention one TL higher than your current TL the cost is multiplied x10." There is no "if" term for "you create an invention two TLs higher than your current TL." Therefore there is no rule in that case; the cost is not defined.

If your current TL is 8, and you create a TL9 invention, your current TL does not become 9; you seem to be assuming the contrary, but there is nothing in the rules to justify this.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

There seems to be no question of propositional logic applying here. The statement in the rules is "If you create an invention one TL higher than your current TL the cost is multiplied x10." There is no "if" term for "you create an invention two TLs higher than your current TL." Therefore there is no rule in that case; the cost is not defined.

If your current TL is 8, and you create a TL9 invention, your current TL does not become 9; you seem to be assuming the contrary, but there is nothing in the rules to justify this.

Can a normal human being reproduce with a genetically modified one if it has undergone Species Modification?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Can a normal human being reproduce with a genetically modified one if it has undergone Species Modification?

I don't understand how that's a follow-up to my previous post. But in any case I would say that the answer is not a matter of the rules of GURPS. You have to decide how it works in your game world. I don't think it's even a matter for paying a point cost; there isn't a GURPS rule for a human being being able to have children with a gorilla, an oak tree, or a volcano as an advantage . . . though I suppose such a trait could be made up.