[Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

[Ronnke]

Originally Posted by Kromm

If the task is uncontested and margin of success matters, add 5 to margin of success on any success; if the task is contested and margin of victory matters, add 5 to margin of victory on any win.

A +5 to the margin of victory in the context of spells is a very big deal.

EDIT: ahhhh.. only when the margin of victory matters. That's not so bad then.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ronnke

A +5 to the margin of victory in the context of spells is a very big deal.

Not really . . . I'm not saying you get +5 to determine whether you win, but +5 to the margin if you win. If you target is 16 and you roll 11, and your subject's target is 14 and he rolls 9, then you tie, the victory goes to the defender, and this doesn't matter; if you had rolled 10, you'd have won by 1 and that would be treated as victory by 6. However, very few spells actually base anything at all on margin, so this effect would be most useful for rules where winning by a lot is more useful than winning by a little.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The "things work more quickly" approach seems most portable. For suitably well-defined tasks, the number of skills would probably be no greater than that for a 5 points/level Talent. Halving haste penalties would give at most a de facto +5, worth 25 points by this metric . . . and I'd toss on Aspected, -20% if there was no net bonus, for 20 points. I still think that's a poor buy, so I'd beef it up some: If the task is uncontested and margin of success matters, add 5 to margin of success on any success; if the task is contested and margin of victory matters, add 5 to margin of victory on any win.

Dunno, for a group of skills / tasks similar to a 5/level Talent, at a price of 20-25 points . . . maybe. There seems a conspiracy of coincidences to make sure that the speed-doing bonus and the MoS-improvement are very rarely useful together. Crafting skills? Umm, probably. Job rolls? Can't use reduced time benefit, but MoS bonus is good for freelancers (+50% cash). Mass Combat? MoS is good, speed is useless. Merchant? MoS is good with advanced rules only.
Memetics? Kind yeah. Cutting down on time is moderately useful, and +5 MoS is about +5% to +10% of the target population affected. Stacking Efficient or a Speed-Work Technique is still desirable, though. And too often one takes extra time.

Hard to tell.

[D10]

Would be interesting for members of a legendary veteran crew on some kind of ship or spacecraft.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

Our GM, inspired by How to be a GURPS GM, decided to cap skills at 18, requiring Trained by a Master to exceed that limit—that's all well and good. But what about a wizard? Or a psychologist? TbaM has no effect for non-melée skills other than as a really-expensive Unusual Background/Rule Exemption.

How would you do it?

I could take a note from Ranma 1/2, and simply say that this is world where any phenomenal level of skill automatically becomes a martial art. Thus they have martial arts cooking, calligraphy, figure skating, golf...

[Ashtagon]

I recall there being a rule somewhere that says extremely high skill levels require constant practice simply to maintain that level of skill. Perhaps TbaM could reduce or even waive that requirement to invest time simply maintaining your skill level.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Not really . . . I'm not saying you get +5 to determine whether you win, but +5 to the margin if you win. If you target is 16 and you roll 11, and your subject's target is 14 and he rolls 9, then you tie, the victory goes to the defender, and this doesn't matter; if you had rolled 10, you'd have won by 1 and that would be treated as victory by 6. However, very few spells actually base anything at all on margin, so this effect would be most useful for rules where winning by a lot is more useful than winning by a little.

An alternative to the +5 MoS thing, perhaps simpler, could be that each such trait, Trained by a Master Wizard, Trained by a Master Rogue, et cetera, also counts as one level of Aspected Luck, only usable on the skills covered by the trait. Or if that's too powerful it could be half a level of Aspected Luck so that it can only be used once per two hours.

Either way, with the +5 MoS thing, or with the built-in Luck, it sounds like an attractive trait for 20 CP. But isn't this thread drifting rather far from the OP's original question?

[Gigermann]

One of the ideas that I'm liking in our in-group discussion on the matter, regarding "Trained by a Master Wizard," is to halve penalties relating to maintaining spells, casting while concentrating, defending while casting, etc.—there's the issue of each additional spell being maintained is already -1, which you can't really "halve"; I was thinking you could just get a freebie in that case. A pretty good analogue to Rapid Strike, and doesn't (I think) overlap with any known Perks.

The more I think of it, though, it seems like TbaM[X] would likely be different for each application. I could see a TbaM[Craftsman] getting a "quality" bump (Fine for regular effort, Very Fine for Fine effort, etc.) What would a TbaM[Bard] get, I wonder?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

One of the ideas that I'm liking in our in-group discussion on the matter, regarding "Trained by a Master Wizard," is to halve penalties relating to maintaining spells, casting while concentrating, defending while casting, etc.—there's the issue of each additional spell being maintained is already -1, which you can't really "halve"; I was thinking you could just get a freebie in that case. A pretty good analogue to Rapid Strike, and doesn't (I think) overlap with any known Perks.

It's similar in effect to Reduced Footprint (GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles, p. 29), but not identical. I wouldn't have a problem with it. In general, halving common classes of large or open-ended penalties (penalties for haste and spells "on" being two good examples) is by far the best approach. It mirrors the halving of Rapid Strike and multiple-parry penalties afforded by combat-oriented Trained by a Master – and also the halving of default penalties for fancy techniques and situational penalties to Fast-Draw, in the case of Gunslinger and Heroic Archer.

Originally Posted by Gigermann

The more I think of it, though, it seems like TbaM[X] would likely be different for each application. I could see a TbaM[Craftsman] getting a "quality" bump (Fine for regular effort, Very Fine for Fine effort, etc.)

I agree with both of those remarks.

Originally Posted by Gigermann

What would a TbaM[Bard] get, I wonder?

Basic access to Enthrallment skills and Musical Influence, just to start with – those are no more realistic than Light Walk and Power Blow. That's five skills, so it would be fair to require a Secret Knowledge or Unusual Training perk for each one, making such access worth 5 points. Time reduction, cost reduction, and/or audience-size increases with Enthrallment would be logical benefits to add if you're bent on charging more points. Simply halving the time needed to use those skills would be worth maybe another 5 to 10 points; finding the fair value would call for some playtesting. Frankly, bundling in Cultural Adaptability and Social Chameleon and decreeing them off limits to others strikes me as a great way to round it out, but I know that many gamers hate bundles.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

I recall there being a rule somewhere that says extremely high skill levels require constant practice simply to maintain that level of skill. Perhaps TbaM could reduce or even waive that requirement to invest time simply maintaining your skill level.

It's on B294, and marked as a harsh realism rule. TBaM and similar advantages are probably not going to be available in a campaign that's using harsh realism - but if they are, this seems like a fine idea.

"I truly understand this skill; I have no need to practice and re-imprint things that are strange to me, learned by rote, because in this field, I can do everything from first principles."