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Old 11-25-2017, 09:17 AM   #51
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by Eidoloclast View Post
If Evaluate provided a Defense bonus (or could be claimed for a 1-turn bonus to defenses instead of a bonus to an attack) then by taking 3 evaluate maneuvers before the all-out defense a speedster could get another +3 defense, which seems pretty reasonable to me.
Someone who in every way is faster wouldn't be better at dodging just because they have the subjective time to observe the opponent like that. It is obviously harder to dodge a fast attack than a sufficiently slower (but otherwise equal) attack even if you don't spend a lot of time observing the opponent. If you see a sword swinging at you in slow motion, you don't need to spend several subjective seconds studying the attack, you can just directly move out of the way with little risk of failure.

Also, +1 per level of ATR would give a larger bonus for going from ATR 1 to ATR 3 than for going from no ATR to ATR 1, despite your speed doubling in both cases.

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Originally Posted by JazzJedi View Post
In my super campaign, each level of AT includes Enhanced Defenses +1, +2 ST, +3 Striking ST, +1 DX, and +2 DR (Thick Skin, -40%). For living creatures, one level of Increased Consumption per level of AT is appropriate.
Why the increase to DX? Somone who is in every way twice as fast wouldn't find it easier to for example thread a needle in half the time. Such tasks being easier would just be because they can spend more subjective time on it.

Also while, such fixed increases per level of ATR makes it simpler, it does come with some unreasonable results. For example, the difference in active defense between two people, one of whom is twice as fast as the other, can either be low or very high depending on their levels of ATR. For no ATR and ATR 1, it is just a difference of 1, but for ATR 9 and ATR 19, it is a difference of 10.
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Old 11-25-2017, 09:53 AM   #52
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
If you see a sword swinging at you in slow motion, you don't need to spend several subjective seconds studying the attack, you can just directly move out of the way with little risk of failure.
"Just" by accelerating radidly, and then decelerating just as rapidly (unless you keep moving away from the sword), overcoming air resistance and momentum to do so.

If you really want to be realistic, Enhanced Time Sense and increased Move is probably better than Altered Time Rate. Being able to react quickly doesn't mean you can make your environment react faster.
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Old 11-25-2017, 10:03 AM   #53
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
"Just" by accelerating radidly, and then decelerating just as rapidly (unless you keep moving away from the sword), overcoming air resistance and momentum to do so.

If you really want to be realistic, Enhanced Time Sense and increased Move is probably better than Altered Time Rate. Being able to react quickly doesn't mean you can make your environment react faster.
Yes, by accelerating and decelerating rapidly, while overcoming air resistance and momentum. Those are things ATR allows you to do.

ATR isn't reacting faster, that is ETS. Making your enviroment react faster (by interacting with it quicker) is ATR (and some other things such as increased ST for throwing things at a higher speed). Also, Enhanced Time Sense and increased Move (did you mean Basic Speed by the way?) doesn't allow you to take many actions in a single second the way ATR does.

Last edited by Andreas; 11-25-2017 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 11-25-2017, 10:14 AM   #54
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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ATR isn't reacting faster, that is ETS. Making your enviroment react faster (by interacting with it quicker) is ATR
The Speed Force isn't realistic. There's no physics that allows you to instantaneously bring things into your inertial frame without changing its momentum.
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Also, Enhanced Time Sense and increased Move (did you mean Basic Speed by the way?)
No I meant Move. Increasing Move increases acceleration.
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doesn't allow you to take many actions in a single second the way ATR does.
Yes, exactly.
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Old 11-25-2017, 10:25 AM   #55
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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The Speed Force isn't realistic. There's no physics that allows you to instantaneously bring things into your inertial frame without changing its momentum. No I meant Move. Increasing Move increases acceleration.

Yes, exactly.
I wasn't refering to The Speed Force. Moving your body faster causes the things you interact with to react in less time. For example, opening a door in half a second less than you otherwise would, causes it to open in half a second less time.

Then such a character isn't faster in every way. He just reacts, perceives, walks and runs faster, so it is not a good solution for this problem.
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:20 PM   #56
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

It really does sound like that most combat speedsters would be better off with Base Move and Extra Attack. If we take the example of ATR 3, a combat speedster can get better benefits for the same cost by taking Basic Move+18, Basic Speed+6, and Extra Attack (Multi-Attack) 3.
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Old 11-25-2017, 05:37 PM   #57
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
I wasn't refering to The Speed Force.
Well not specifically, but it is an example of what you are talking about and was created to solve this problem.
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Moving your body faster causes the things you interact with to react in less time. For example, opening a door in half a second less than you otherwise would, causes it to open in half a second less time.
Only if you accelerate it and decelerate it twice as fast, which requires twice as much force (more when you account for drag since doors aren't usually very aerodynamic). If you can bring it to your inertial frame without a proportionate force and while ignoring air resistance and then return it to a rest frame equally effortlessly, you have an aphysical ability.
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Old 11-25-2017, 06:16 PM   #58
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Well not specifically, but it is an example of what you are talking about and was created to solve this problem. Only if you accelerate it and decelerate it twice as fast, which requires twice as much force (more when you account for drag since doors aren't usually very aerodynamic). If you can bring it to your inertial frame without a proportionate force and while ignoring air resistance and then return it to a rest frame equally effortlessly, you have an aphysical ability.
No, what I was refering to was accelerating and decelerating objects twice as fast. Yes, that requires applying greater force.

Though, you could also define an ability which workes through something like that speed force and work out the realistic consequenses of that (which if my limited understanding of that concept is correct, would probably work out to the same result for dodging since you aren't directly interacting with your opponent then).
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Old 11-25-2017, 06:31 PM   #59
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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No, what I was refering to was accelerating and decelerating objects twice as fast. Yes, that requires applying greater force.
Why do you think Altered Time Rate has anything to do with this? Ripping a door off its hinges is a ST versus HT contest. Opening the door twice as fast because you are in accelerated time, without inflicting doubled forces on the door or displacing the air twice as fast is a super power and isn't realistic in any way.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 11-25-2017 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 11-25-2017, 06:37 PM   #60
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Default Re: Defense bonus and ATR

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Why do you think Altered Time Rate has anything to do with this?
It allows you to take more actions which is part of what you need for someone who truly is faster in every way. Of course you need more than that as well and the purpose of this thread is to ask about how much of a defense bonus (and how much harder it should be for others to defend against your attacks) you would realistically need for such a character.

Quote:
Ripping a door off its hinges is a ST versus HT contest. Opening the door twice as fast because you are in accelerated time, without inflicting doubled forces on the door or displacing the air twice as fast is a super power and isn't realistic in any way.
Yes, inflicting doubled forces would be part of it. I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up.
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