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Old 09-08-2018, 09:07 PM   #1
TheAmishStig
 
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Default Wargaming Terrain

Ok...so! I'm up to no good re: the 2020 convention season [and maybe the tail end of the 2019 season], but I'm more than a little out of my depth.

For those that are into tape-measures-and-terrain wargaming, what do you consider "Fine for a quick game at home" vs "presentable" vs "wow!" vs "trying too hard", etc?

I saw a lot of different options at a FLGS I was doing demos at today (as well as a convention in the spring), and it's given me more than a few ideas...what I'm looking for by making this post is to have a better understanding of what you'd go in expecting to see (in terms of presentation quality) when walking up to an official demo table.
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:05 PM   #2
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Default Re: Wargaming Terrain

I regularly go to miniatures gaming conventions and special events at my miniatures-oriented FLGS.

There is no such thing as "Trying too hard" —*"Wow!" always attracts a lot of attention and attendees telling their friends to go take a look. Huzzah in Portland Maine for example runs above-average quality presentations, including photo-realisitic 28mm Stalingrad tables with museum-quality modelling (and the modelling artists have corresponded with the Stalingrad Museum to get photos of the back side of Pavlov's House to accurately model the whole building)!

The games I bring run from presentable to striving for wow.

Minimal presentable means all minis and terrain are painted and some level of detail.

A plain felt/cloth ground cover is the very low end of presentable. A little sprucing effort goes a long way, even just adding texture/shading with fabric paints, spray paints, stone-texture spray paints, and/or flocking helps a lot. or using one of many commercial printed game mats. Next level up is purpose built game boards for the particular terrain.

Well organised play aids ready to hand each player are a big help. Dice, tape measure, reference charts. Each player's minis on their own holding tray or set-up area help the presentation and flow of the game tremendously.
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Old 09-09-2018, 04:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: Wargaming Terrain

That's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for! Thanks!

Quick follow-up: How common, and how immersion breaking, is "flop on top the terrain" water to a not-outsider?

That's the other thing leaving me super-torn at the moment...as personally it drives me nuts, but maybe I'm looking way too much into it and the audience I'd be building for wouldn't think twice. It's left me debating between something "Citadel Realm of Battle"-ish, where the base is foam or some other material I can cut into to do negative elevations [both for canyons and for water], or going with a felt / neoprene / etc base then buying/futzing about making floppy silicone / canvas / etc water.
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Old 09-09-2018, 05:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Wargaming Terrain

Flop on top water is fairly common. I've never seen folks ever react negatively to it. It looks better if you the flop piece has an outer bank edge as part of it with flocking/detailing for the bank edge.

Layering water on a bottom layer isn't too difficult. Relatively easy upgrade is watery looking fabric, layer of clear vinyl sheet on top of that to make it shiny, and then ground cloth on top of that.

The most common medium for purpose built boards is sheets of pink insulation foam from the hardware store carved with a hot knife (and a respirator and good ventilation!), with that it is easy to do complex elevations.
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Old 09-09-2018, 05:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Wargaming Terrain

My philosophy is, "It's a game, not a diorama."

Water atop the game mat is fine, and as Cat said, it looks much better with banks and flocking.

Also, what can really give a game verisimilitude is lots of scatter terrain. It doesn't have to be super-detailed; just some small rocks or patches of vegetation, buildings, ruins, etc. can break up the monotony and make you forget that you're looking at a cloth mat.
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Old 09-09-2018, 05:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: Wargaming Terrain

There are some photos over here of a big project modelling Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow for gaming. There is still much work to go to bring it up to striving for wow, but was respectably presentable in May.

Eventually, the boards will all be purpose built. The flop water used for now I made with strips of felt that I use in a lot of games. Painted the water with blue and green metallic craft paints, masked that over, and then did the banks with stone-texture spray paint.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index....507#msg1370507

Pink foam is also great for making flop hills, pieces here used in a a 15mm Girls Und Panzer game, also get used in many games. The ground cloth here is a micro-fleece blanket which provides its own natural variegation.

https://goblinhall.com/2017/07/25/mu...very-vehicles/

https://goblinhall.com/2017/03/01/se...nders-cosplay/
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Old 09-09-2018, 09:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Wargaming Terrain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Scribe View Post
My philosophy is, "It's a game, not a diorama."

Also, what can really give a game verisimilitude is lots of scatter terrain. It doesn't have to be super-detailed; just some small rocks or patches of vegetation, buildings, ruins, etc. can break up the monotony and make you forget that you're looking at a cloth mat.
Ain't that the truth...I watched a couple diorama builds on Youtube last night since I knew those would have techniques for inset rivers, and came out thinking "I wouldn't mind doing something *like* this, but that's too far on the high end. I don't have 50+ hours per square foot...or the skill to paint like that...or a space that'd be safe from a four-legged clod / said four-legged clod's shedding long enough to do that level of detail...or enough space to transport something that can't be compacted neatly..." Good call on the scatter terrain, too!

That doesn't mean I wouldn't split the difference if the opportunity presented itself. The killer would be striking a balance between visual appeal and usefulness, thanks to the whole "permanent aspects are permanent" factor. That'd make something that can be reconfigured a lot more useful than one-offs that can't be used with any other piece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat View Post
Flop on top water is fairly common. I've never seen folks ever react negatively to it. It looks better if you the flop piece has an outer bank edge as part of it with flocking/detailing for the bank edge.

Layering water on a bottom layer isn't too difficult. Relatively easy upgrade is watery looking fabric, layer of clear vinyl sheet on top of that to make it shiny, and then ground cloth on top of that.

The most common medium for purpose built boards is sheets of pink insulation foam from the hardware store carved with a hot knife (and a respirator and good ventilation!), with that it is easy to do complex elevations.
There are some photos over here of a big project modelling Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow for gaming. There is still much work to go to bring it up to striving for wow, but was respectably presentable in May.

Eventually, the boards will all be purpose built. The flop water used for now I made with strips of felt that I use in a lot of games. Painted the water with blue and green metallic craft paints, masked that over, and then did the banks with stone-texture spray paint.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index....507#msg1370507

Pink foam is also great for making flop hills, pieces here used in a a 15mm Girls Und Panzer game, also get used in many games. The ground cloth here is a micro-fleece blanket which provides its own natural variegation.

https://goblinhall.com/2017/07/25/mu...very-vehicles/

https://goblinhall.com/2017/03/01/se...nders-cosplay/
Good to know I wouldn't get looked at funny for bringing that to the table...I've only ever seen 4 locations, and of them only one had water, so wasn't sure. The water I saw yesterday the banks were really high, almost knee-high on a Bolt Action figure; when the minis were standing next to it, I couldn't shake wanting to think of it as an elevated moat. With a low(er) bank like the one in that Sleepy Hollow build, or something to help the illusion [such as a periphery that slopes up to the bank], that could take care of that for me.

Also good to know that what I was looking at for purpose-built boards [as well as replacing the purpose-built boards for my Car Wars arena, the next time it needs pieces recut] is the right stuff. Saw it in Home Despot a couple months back, and got a piece to play with for making oversized hexes, but I couldn't cut to tight enough tolerances to make that angle worthwhile. Pretty sure I could handle making flop hills out of it though.

Hexon caught my eye late last night too, as a potential solution to the "oversized hexes" conversation the three of us have been having back and forth between here and FB...but by the time I'd get enough stuff to cover a pair of tables, let alone to do so with rivers, streams, roads, and all the stuff that makes an Ogre map interesting, that's "get a personal 3D printer and make it yourself" money.
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Last edited by TheAmishStig; 09-10-2018 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 09-09-2018, 11:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: Wargaming Terrain

You may want to check out Cigar Box Mats. They are beautifully printed on fleece and lay out on the table with no wrinkles. Their Roads and Rivers mat is designed to be cut up for use, the material cuts fine without any fraying.

Hill shapes can be placed under the mat for elevations.

http://cigarboxbattlestore.bigcartel.com/

Of numerous brands I've seen, this is my favorite. I get mine from Noble Knight Games at a discount price, and free shipping on orders over $150.
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Old 09-10-2018, 02:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: Wargaming Terrain

Well, if it helps, here's some thoughts from my experiences of providing demonstration and participation wargames at various UK events:

* Keep it proportionate. By that I mean don't put in hundreds of hours of work for a single day event that only lasts several hours. Remember, it's not just terrain - there's the figures/components, plus the support material, like handouts, play sheets, etc. Do as much work on all those aspects to provide a good practical layout, but no when to quit when you find yourself fussing over superfluous details.

* Keep it fun & friendly. Especially if it's a participation set-up. The last thing you want to do is to bury some poor unfortunate soul under a mountain of rules and methodology, so they walk away dazed and unhappy. Think of providing a take-away badge or token so they can show others they took part. Handout leaflets are good for this too. Even provide hats for participants to wear - worked especially well for a Russian Civil War game once.

* Keep it practical. Always set out in the initial designing that you will make something you will use more than once. Maybe do two or three events with this game? Maybe you're just doing the local Con, but you then want to keep it for games sessions at home or at your FLGS in the months to come? Design and construct accordingly. Make it easy to transport, and easy to set-up and take-down. And ask around when you start making it - you may be surprised that someone you know who's never been that fussed about playing games, absolutely loves the idea of creating something for gaming.

* Keep it clear for gaming. OK - I'll admit this is my pet-hate, but there's nothing worse than spending time designing an excellent game layout for public presentation, to then have drinks cans, sweet wrappers, stationery, and all other manner of junk strewn all around it. Set the rules of game presentation early to all who take part. If they really must bring their lunch with them, tell them it gets stashed under the table. Provide end-spaces perhaps to stash the detritus. And ask them to respect your efforts you went too to provide this game. (I actually go more extreme than this, and ban counters and markers and all other clutter from the actual tabletop too, but that's me.)

* Keep it evolving. Don't expect to get it perfectly right first time. Set it up, enjoy your day, and then take a moment or two as you clear away some stuff before you take-down completely. Make notes - what could you change for the better? What were the aspects that the guests most enjoyed? What other aspects could be improved? Then put those notes in your wallet to look up later. (Helps to keep it small and concise for brevity, and it's somewhere important and safe so you don't lose them.) Later, after giving yourself a day or two off to blank the immediate memory recall, re-visit with notes and the set-up and see if there's anything else you would want to change. And don't be afraid to revert back to a format if you find a change doesn't work - too many folks travel in one direction, and lose focus if they ever have to backtrack and start again at an earlier stage.

* Keep at it. The efforts you put in to put on a game for the public, be it demo or participation, means you will end up with better gaming experience and better provisions for your own personal gaming. Whether you end up with lots of extra terrain, more dice, or more confidence and self-esteem and a better sense of purpose, you will benefit yourself from all that you put in. And above all else, have fun. Good luck.
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Old 09-10-2018, 03:13 AM   #10
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Default Re: Wargaming Terrain

And as for terrain - well, think outside the box sometimes :-)

For me, I'm lucky in that I have loads of Hexon tiles that are easy for me to acquire here in UK. The stuff provides an excellent baseboard to then build on. And it's not all about hexgrid gaming either. I've used my tiles as the playing surface for more traditional 'measure-&-move' gaming styles too.

But a good start is knowing how you're going to classify your terrain. While you seem to have a good idea on where you want to go with water surfaces & features, also look at what you want for 'soft' and 'hard' terrain too. It's how I tend to work, in a sort of crude binary way, for my wargaming but I'll explain it to hopefully provide you a glimpse into my way of thinking.

So take those two types of terrain:

Soft is for natural stuff, from grass, corn, reeds, marsh, bush, trees, etc., but also hills, rocks, etc., - and how that is then grouped and placed for affect. E.g., a copse of trees for aesthetic effect, or a forest that prevents certain troops moving into it.

Hard is anything constructed, or man-made. Everything from fences, walls, buildings to purpose-made fortifications and bunkers, etc..

So, you now have Terrain Type, then decide whether or not it provides some benefit of Cover, or not. This is whether defenders occupying that terrain gain a benefit from doing so. If it does, then you call it Soft Cover or Hard Cover accordingly, and if it doesn't it remains just Soft ground or Hard terrain and then only affects movement and access.

(And Line-Of-Sight can be worked out accordingly, if it's needed, and visibility ranges judged. Too many folks get hung up in arguments about L-O-S as part of 'Terrain-only' assessments, where it's an important stand-alone aspect that deserves more respect and consideration.)

Keeping to a simple system like that allows you to quickly educate others who have rolled up to play your game. It prevents you having to explain and repeat explanations during the game, especially when during such an explanation you point out examples of Soft ground, Soft Cover, Hard ground and Hard Cover. I tend to find folks catch on real quick, because it makes it easier for them to read the 'battlefield' you've then set-up as your tabletop.

Back to that 'outside-the-box' thinking I mentioned at the start.

Recently, I wanted to get some 6mm terrain to go with Ogre Miniatures gaming, and I also wanted to replicate some of my S&TO counters - to actually put some of those Facilities onto an Ogre wargaming tabletop. While Shapeways is a good route to follow, it can get expensive, so I ended up scouring existing producers of 6mm sci-fi terrain. I quickly had to expand that to 6mm modern terrain, or various gauges of railway modelling supplies. And even then, I wasn't really getting anywhere very fast.

I sat back, remembered I did want to order some items to use as Objective Markers for some 28mm sci-fi skirmish rules I use, and went to a UK company I've used before. And there next to the Ammo Crates I wanted for that, were these castings used as Packing Crates - looking to me as perfect for 6mm Facility Storage sheds. I carried on browsing, and found 28mm fuel drums that make useful 6mm fuel tanks. I also ended up with 28mm pipework baffles that provide me a good component for POL Stores; 28mm aircon units that provide me a Missile Silo; and yet more Stores and Containers that can be used for other Facilities or parts of Facilities.

It's a question of scale - and whether you're happy to 'Under-Scale' or not. This is where someone decides that they are happy with terrain item in a scale one or two grades below their figure scale. One of the best examples of this I've seen is in Napoleonics where 10mm terrain items serve to make better Built-Up-Areas for 15mm figures. And after all, this is the one aspect of wargaming that people either completely ignore or end up making allowances for: vertical scale inbalance. You may have a 6mm scale Heavy Tank that provides a perfectly neat scuplture, but with the best will in the world, vertical scale can never be synchronized with ground scale. To do so, that 6mm Heavy Tank would need a mapboard hundreds of meters in size. So, 'Under-Scaling' often provides a handy workable solution to make it look good and play well.
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