RPM: Greater vs Lesser

[alimantando]

Well, just a simple question.

Is there a hard and fast rule somewhere I can use to determine what effects are Greater and what not?


EDIT:
I don't mean that provocativly.
RPM sounds cool to me, but I don't trust my own judgement so I can't realy use it.

[SCAR]

I'm sure those with more experience with RPM will chip in, but this has come up before, and Ghostdancer covered thus:

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

A good guide for lesser v. greater effects is to look at what can be done 'normally' in a game setting. If it could be done given a reasonable amount of time, reasonable amount of effort, and doesn't break any overt natural laws it's probably a lesser effect. Since restoring FP just takes a little bit of time and rest (1 FP per 10 minutes) spells that restore FP probably shouldn't be considered a greater effect. That's how I do it in my games anyways - RPM will give better guidelines for this when it comes out.

Greater effects are reserved for things that should be just flat out impossible (at least that's I read it). Keep in mind that impossible might differ from setting to setting.

A few forum searches for RPM, particularly for the posts by the author PK or Ghostdancer should find lots of helpful advice.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by alimantando

Is there a hard and fast rule somewhere I can use to determine what effects are Greater and what not?

No.

Sorry to be blunt, but there's not a long list of various effects marked Greater and Lesser anywhere. As SCAR says, there have been various threads on the forum with advice, and the upcoming RPM book will go into it in more depth.

The rule is the one in MH1.

The GM is the arbiter of whether an effect is “believable,” “natural,” “simple,” or “subtle” (and thus a Lesser effect). As a guideline, ask whether a mundane bystander would believe that the effect could have occurred naturally.

Each path has a sentence or two roughing out the boundary between Lesser and Greater. (For instance, Path of Crossroads: "Lesser effects can only affect existing gates or weak points in reality. Greater effects can create them or target beings". Path of Mind: "Lesser effects can do anything to nonsapient minds; intelligent minds may be affected in a noninvasive manner (e.g., voluntary communication) or in a way limited to a single, specific aspect (e.g., a single memory or Hearing rolls), Greater effects can affect intelligent minds fully." So you're not left without guidance. But it's ultimately a judgement call.

Then again, all RPG rulesets ultimately involve GM judgement.

[vierasmarius]

Hopefully the upcoming RPM book will delve further into how to classify Lesser and Greater effects. I'd especially like if it offered common "switches" - ie, while hurling fireballs or healing wound with a touch are Greater effects in a modern secret-magic setting, they may be Lesser in an over-the-top DF game. I think as long as the GM is consistent within a particular game world, it should be alright, and can actually help to heighten the tone he's trying to achieve in that game.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Hopefully the upcoming RPM book will delve further into how to classify Lesser and Greater effects. I'd especially like if it offered common "switches" - ie, while hurling fireballs or healing wound with a touch are Greater effects in a modern secret-magic setting, they may be Lesser in an over-the-top DF game. I think as long as the GM is consistent within a particular game world, it should be alright, and can actually help to heighten the tone he's trying to achieve in that game.

World switches are a good idea, but is there any particular reason why effects can't be in-between? Be neither Lesser nor Greater but instead be Medium?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

World switches are a good idea, but is there any particular reason why effects can't be in-between? Be neither Lesser nor Greater but instead be Medium?

Good question. Presumably the current mode was chosen for its relatively simplicity; effect "complexity" is a binary switch. For each Path you can have a particular cut-off point, with everything above being Greater, and everything else Lesser. Now, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem introducing a third effect rank in, each one adding +1 to the multiplier rather than Greater's +2. But you're still left with the (now slightly weightier) problem of classifying what particular effects fall where on the spectrum.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

World switches are a good idea, but is there any particular reason why effects can't be in-between? Be neither Lesser nor Greater but instead be Medium?

Because there's no "Medium" category defined in the RAW, and so classifying things in such a way has no meaning. (This view ought to be right up your alley, Peter.)

Feel free to extend the system to include a Medium Effects category -- no doubt with a energy multiplier of 2 instead of 3 -- if you find that useful.

Of course, the more granularity you add to this classification, the harder you make the OP's problem. What if "Effect Level" were just a real number from 1.0 to 3.0? Is my effect really a 2.179, or it it more of a 2.201? How can you judge?

A bigger world switch would be type of campaign. RPM is intended for "secret magic" type settings, which is the basis of the "observer" notion for Greater Effects in the first place. I suspect the costs of the various paths are also intend to nudge mages into preferring certain types of spells. DF-style games wouldn't have any problem with mages blasting their way through all problems, and might make Energy cheap, but crank up the cost of divination or travel.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I suspect the costs of the various paths are also intend to nudge mages into preferring certain types of spells. DF-style games wouldn't have any problem with mages blasting their way through all problems, and might make Energy cheap, but crank up the cost of divination or travel.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, since the costs of the various paths are identical: IQ/VH. Now, perhaps the energy costs for Spell Effects and Modifiers could be different, though I feel they're generally pretty well balanced. For a high-fantasy game in which Fireballs and Lightning Bolts are flung about casually, all that's necessary is to make them Lesser rather than Greater Effects; the tripled damage for "visible, blatant, external attacks" is already generous enough. If Divination is relatively harder, make that Greater instead.

[PK]

Originally Posted by alimantando

Is there a hard and fast rule somewhere I can use to determine what effects are Greater and what not?

Currently, there's only the general guidance found in the description of each Path. But the real determiner of these things is always the GM. He should feel free to make this decision based on whether he wants the spell in his game or not. Basically, if the spell is cool and you'd want the PC casting it every session with ease, make it Lesser; if it looks like a pain in the rear that might disrupt the store, make it Greater. :)

When GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic is released (and we haven't announced a date yet, sorry, but we are working on it), it'll include much, much, much, much -- yeah, let's throw one last "much" in there -- more detail on every individual spell effect. For example, you'll find an entire paragraph devoted to the Restore Body effect, including details on the recommended differences between Lesser Restore Body and Greater Restore Body . . . but it's still up to the GM whether an effect is Lesser or Greater, regardless of what examples I give.

RPM sounds cool to me, but I don't trust my own judgement so I can't realy use it.

Sorry, but I can't believe this. If you can GM a game, you can adjudicate RPM. Deciding whether something is Lesser or Greater is just like deciding whether a PC's Jumping roll should be at -2 or -5. You look at the situation in-game and make a judgment call. The fact that it's magic might be intimidating you, but it's no different than any other GM call. If you have any doubt about it, just make it Greater because that's less likely to unbalance things.

Also, because it's magic, if you make the call and later decide that you made the wrong one, you can change it. You let the player use a telekinetic punch as a Lesser effect and now he's unbalancing the game with it? Hey, guess what? It was only Lesser because Virgo was in alignment with Sagittarius, and that just ended -- now it's Greater. ("When will they realign?" "Oh, about 210 years from now.")

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Of course, the more granularity you add to this classification, the harder you make the OP's problem. What if "Effect Level" were just a real number from 1.0 to 3.0? Is my effect really a 2.179, or it it more of a 2.201? How can you judge?

Ow my head. :)

A bigger world switch would be type of campaign. RPM is intended for "secret magic" type settings, which is the basis of the "observer" notion for Greater Effects in the first place.

Not exactly. Whether something is Lesser or Greater doesn't have anything to do with whether the magic would stay secret or not. The distinction is actually based on how natural a change is -- the more you're trying to break the laws of physics, the harder the spell should be. It just happens that how "believable" a spell is is a really good way to measure how badly it's punching physics in the face to accomplish its goals.

In the RPM book, I actually offer a new, optional take on Lesser and Greater effects that is based on "secret magic" and the Observer Effect -- partly to contrast the two and clarify this point.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by PK

Whether something is Lesser or Greater doesn't have anything to do with whether the magic would stay secret or not. The distinction is actually based on how natural a change is -- the more you're trying to break the laws of physics, the harder the spell should be.

So, in the recent discussion on magical island-building, using an existing undersea volcano means you're working with purely Lesser effects, while creating one anew would be Greater?

And what about using a spell to kindle self-sustaining effects? Presumably a short-lived magical spark can still ignite a long-lasting forest fire; and a short-duration (and relatively lower-mass) magma excitation might start up a sustained eruption.