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Old 03-06-2018, 06:32 PM   #661
Bayarea
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

One of the biggest things for me is death at 0 ST, this should be changed to unconscious at 0 ST and dead at -ST. A knocked out player is almost unheard of yet it happens all the time in Fiction and real life for that matter.

So a PC with 9 ST gets hit by a broad sword for 12 (Yes! Box Cars!!) he is unconscious with -3 ST, if the party wins the battle the character could be healed. If they lose the character is most likely killed or maybe ransomed after recovery.

In this case the PC's win, a Physicker can heal 2 points of damage, as they don't have any magic potions right now he heals at the normal rate (1ST/2day? my memory is bad need some of that mIQ) so he is out for 2 days regaining consciousness at 0 ST but still unable to do anything.

This will help with 2 things character survivability and making dramatic rescues more likely to happen. After all how many times did Frodo get knocked out, or any one of many heroes.
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Old 03-06-2018, 06:55 PM   #662
Kirk
 
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Originally Posted by Bayarea View Post
One of the biggest things for me is death at 0 ST, this should be changed to unconscious at 0 ST and dead at -ST. A knocked out player is almost unheard of yet it happens all the time in Fiction and real life for that matter.

So a PC with 9 ST gets hit by a broad sword for 12 (Yes! Box Cars!!) he is unconscious with -3 ST, if the party wins the battle the character could be healed. If they lose the character is most likely killed or maybe ransomed after recovery.

In this case the PC's win, a Physicker can heal 2 points of damage, as they don't have any magic potions right now he heals at the normal rate (1ST/2day? my memory is bad need some of that mIQ) so he is out for 2 days regaining consciousness at 0 ST but still unable to do anything.

This will help with 2 things character survivability and making dramatic rescues more likely to happen. After all how many times did Frodo get knocked out, or any one of many heroes.
As I mentioned somewhere before, we do this to do exactly that, to allow for unconscious but not dead characters. What we do also, though, is add a Mortal Wound saving roll, being 3d6 vs basic ST, adjusted against the character by the amount of the severity of his unconsciousness. So a ST 12 character that has been reduced to -3 strength, for instance, would need to make a 12-3, or 9 or less, to be viable and not die of his wounds.
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:53 PM   #663
Bayarea
 
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As I mentioned somewhere before, we do this to do exactly that, to allow for unconscious but not dead characters. What we do also, though, is add a Mortal Wound saving roll, being 3d6 vs basic ST, adjusted against the character by the amount of the severity of his unconsciousness. So a ST 12 character that has been reduced to -3 strength, for instance, would need to make a 12-3, or 9 or less, to be viable and not die of his wounds.
Well then basically then -7 means death for a 12 ST character unless he rolls an automatic success roll, that seems a little harsh.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:12 PM   #664
Jim Kane
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One of the biggest things for me is death at 0 ST, this should be changed to unconscious at 0 ST and dead at -ST.
You make a good proposition and very good supporting argument.

Food-for-Thought:

As one who has LONG play-tested this "unconscious at 0, dead when ST goes fully negative" adapted for TFT - having lifted it from 1st. Ed. Hero System; Peterson/MacDonald, 1981 - there is a counter-balance effect on the TFT game; which is not present in the game-system that rule was specifically designed for.

Consider this:

At the end of a battle In The Labyrinth, what does your party do NOW?

Does the party now spike or barricade the doors and begin hacking to pieces all the fallen enemies you have just bested?

After all, they are not "fully dead" yet, so you might want to begin head-chopping after the battle as S.O.P. from now on; which is great for Barbarians, BUT what if someone or you play one of the Chivalrous Hero types?

Same thing goes for "Just slit their throats,.. nice as quick!"

Okay, but did your Leader send Sir Goody-2-Shoes outside to "watch the tunnel" while this operation was in progress? Is he out there alone, all by himself?

Oh, you have TWO Sir-Goody-2-Shoes in your party to protect each other out in the tunnel? Well, that means double-duty for the 2 "fixers" left in your party, and the whole operation just ate up some extra turns due to being short-handed,... and what if some THING uninvited shows up in the murder-room while your party is split?

Uh oh.

You might simply set their bodies ablaze with some Molotail Oil; but that's going to make a lot of smoke and smell - never a good thing to have when sneaking around in the underground with few natural air-channels to the surface-world above. And don't forget to mark-off those used Molotails on your Character Sheets; that way they won't be there when you need them most.

Hmm,...

"Leave 'em for the Slimes!" You say? Okay, but what if their buddies and THEIR Physicker finds these dying guys before the slimes do, and then, starts pumping them full of Healing Potions?

That labyrinth tunnel-complex is going to become VERY FULL of a very hostile and ever-growing mob of healed enemies - on the search for YOU.

No, you HAVE to kill them, FULLY.

Also, if your GM is NOT the type who readily announces: "Okay, the Ogre's ST was 20, and now he is at ST minus 13.": How would you know when it is safe to leave heavily wounded enemies behind for "dead" (which is RARELY a good idea in a confined combat environment).

How would you know if those enemies are dead, or "just dying"?

Again, you HAVE to kill them - FULLY.

Return to paragraph #2: "What does your party do NOW?"

I am sure you see the potential dilemma in changing this rule. It works great provided your GM is only giving it to YOUR SIDE, and does not play the labyrinth as a living, reactive entity onto itself, and treats the enemies as puppets, not NPC's.

Either way, the dynamic change to the GAME - beyond the direct benefit to a player-character - means a party would now have to take TIME, and make NOISE, and expend RESOURCES to fully slaughter all enemies who did not escape.

Sure, you say again, you can just slit ALL their swarthy throats, but that still takes extra time by using an extra turn(s),... and if your GM is a good one, he is marking-off EVERY turn, and advancing the Labyrinth and it's occupants one turn closer to you as they react to the noise from your underground battle.

Need to finish-off 4 fallen enemies, AND heal your party?

Well, that's a lot of TIME, and before you know it,.. DING, DONG, TROLLS AT THE DOOR, and they aren't delivering from Domino's!

Time constriction plays a large role in TFT:ITL. Time is a RESOURCE, which works AGAINST a party in the labyrinth; much like in a Casino, the more you hang-around, the faster the Law-of-Large-Numbers and the Diminishing Returns of a Negative-Expectation game will eat you up!

Also, doing things like chopping up your foes not only makes extra NOISE, but extends the DURATION of noise when in the labyrinth, which is like ringing a dinner-bell for the Trolls.

TIME, NOISE, RESOURCES, YOUR ST, YOUR ENEMIES ST, FOOD, WATER, AIR - it's all part of a bigger system; change one of those and you may imbalance the game in way not foreseen when tested on a Melee map ONLY, or only in your head.

In sum: All that extra life-extension the "Unconscious at 0, Dead at fully negative ST" rule creates, also has other affects on the TFT game as a whole; because it applies to everyone and every thing - or it SHOULD.

So I ask you once again, "Now that your enemies are fallen and unconscious, but not DEAD-DEAD, what does your party do NOW?"

Hmmm?

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-07-2018 at 04:19 AM.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:44 PM   #665
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Well then basically then -7 means death for a 12 ST character unless he rolls an automatic success roll, that seems a little harsh.
Getting whacked to -7 ST *is* serious! With a healing potion etc. one might improve a bit, but mostly it comes into play when a player of moderate strength is at -1 or -2 or -3, giving hope that after the encounter they might survive.

We like TFT deadly, enough so that you have to play well, and resort to dangerous combat only when really necessary, not as first go-to as a regular rule. Knowing one can survive poor, sloppy, or unreasonable play just encourages more of it.

And this assumes medical help usually, left alone at -3 to bleed out or die of dehydration will be the result otherwise, which addresses a concern I read in a post somewhere near here. NPCs, with aid, can sometimes recover to be questioned etc. but left alone will usually die without having to resort to systematic body rolling and throat slitting, though if you want to hasten demise and have the time and inclination, it is an option.
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Old 03-07-2018, 01:27 AM   #666
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--snip--

In sum: All that extra life-extension the "Unconscious at 0, Dead at fully negative ST" rule creates, also has other effects on the TFT game as a whole; because it applies to everyone and every thing - or it SHOULD.
Why? Lots of other games use "mook" rules to avoid precisely these issues. Why can't we?

More importantly, if the bad guys are down and into the negative numbers in their hits, they aren't going to suddenly snap awake and leap up to chase after us anyway -- which is all we really care about during our murder-hobo venture into the depths to rescue the princess/prince or loot the evil temple. If they're all healed up in a few months, goody for them, but by then we expect to be elsewhere. And even if they're feeling all revengeful-like, well, that's a cool plot twist too.

On a more immediate level, I doubt any evil warlord is going to waste precious healing potions on a pack of low-level grunts, which means they'll have to heal on their own -- see you in a few months maybe, fellas! And if it's a raggedy-ass orc or bandit band, they probably don't have much in the way of extra cosmic healing powers anyway; again, into the sick beds with those goons.

Either way, whether you treat them as mooks and move on, or administer the details of their healing time like they were important NPCs, it comes out in the wash, and I DON'T need to spend half an hour slitting weasands and amputating toes so they can't run anymore.

Last edited by JLV; 03-07-2018 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:33 AM   #667
Jim Kane
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Why? Lots of other games use "mook" rules to avoid precisely these issues. Why can't we?
Did you read somewhere in my post that I wrote: "You can't do this" ?

I explain - with examples - exactly how and why that specific rule, if adopted, affects a TFT experience directly.

Regarding all the other questions you asked me here and now: You will find all the answers to your questions were already addressed and answered in the body of that post. Therefore, I would commend them to you for your easy reference.

If during your re-read you do find where I inform someone of what they "cannot do" in their game, if you would do me the favor, please, notice me at once.

I'd appreciate it.

Thank you.

P.S. - Where you aware that your polemically-sent post to me is numbered as post 666 ? Fascinating.

.

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-07-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:39 PM   #668
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(...)
In sum: All that extra life-extension the "Unconscious at 0, Dead at fully negative ST" rule creates, also has other affects on the TFT game as a whole; because it applies to everyone and every thing - or it SHOULD.

So I ask you once again, "Now that your enemies are fallen and unconscious, but not DEAD-DEAD, what does your party do NOW?"

Hmmm?
I have played for years allowing PC to go sub zero and still survive in case of quick medical aid (no need to give details here), while enemies/NPCs, unless they are major villains or important NPCs, die quietly at zero.

No NPC has ever accused me to favor the PCs :-)
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:49 PM   #669
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I have played for years allowing PC to go sub zero and still survive in case of quick medical aid (no need to give details here), while enemies/NPCs, unless they are major villains or important NPCs, die quietly at zero.

No NPC has ever accused me to favor the PCs :-)
Exactly what I do.
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:10 PM   #670
JLV
 
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Did you read somewhere in my post that I wrote: "You can't do this" ?

I explain - with examples - exactly how and why that specific rule, if adopted, affects a TFT experience directly.

Regarding all the other questions you asked me here and now: You will find all the answers to your questions were already addressed and answered in the body of that post. Therefore, I would commend them to you for your easy reference.

If during your re-read you do find where I inform someone of what they "cannot do" in their game, if you would do me the favor, please, notice me at once.

I'd appreciate it.

Thank you.

P.S. - Where you aware that your polemically-sent post to me is numbered as post 666 ? Fascinating.

.
Why do you consider asking a question or pointing out that your discussion makes unwarranted assumptions an act of hostility? Am I not allowed to ask questions any more?

Nor did I say at any time that " you said x." Perhaps you should re-read MY post at this point. What I did do was point out that your argument was focused on a single approach and that other approaches, equally valid, could be used to bypass the issue you were raising. In effect, I explained - with examples - exactly how and why that specific rule, if adopted, doesn't necessarily affect the TFT experience as directly as you think it does. (And, I'll note in passing that ecz summarized the exact same point in HIS response; so where's the hostile response to him?)

And finally, since I didn't ASK any "other" questions in my post, I have to ask whose post you might be referring to in that regard. Clearly it wasn't mine.

Thank you.

P.S. What's your point with that little sally?
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