Some questions about the Soldier skill

[Tema69]

Originally Posted by acrosome

For instace, who can tell me what 031015ZSEP14 means?

September 3rd 2014, 10:15 am. Greenwich Mean Time :D


I think the Soldier skill and the Savoir Faire (Military) skill vary highly by TL and country. It really depends on how long basic training is, what war your nation is preparing for/reeling from/scared off.
We still do a lot of cold war era stuff for example, as well as a lot of cold weather stuff. I doubt that an american soldier in Texas would learn the same (although I wouldn't know for sure), since it doesn't apply very much to him/her.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

I'm pretty sure that's Savoir-Faire (Military).

Ok, then making this roll which would normally require Savoire-Faire (Military) at +4 is yet another application of Soldier skill, in which case I'd propose that all of what I just said stands. Whatever floats your boat. That's why I favor thinking of Savoire-Faire (Military) as a sort of a higher-order skill for NCOs and officers, covering official ceremonies and high-level hobnobbing. In this vision a general's batman would have it, but not most other junior enlisted. It would also be the skill that the Secretary of Defense has, e.g. even if he doesn't have Soldier skill.

You want to plan a change of command ceremony without snubbing the XO's 2nd wife? You need to be entertaining while acting as Mr Vice at a dining-in, yet not step over the line and end up assigned as mess officer for the next two years? You need to lead an honor guard without committing some monumental faux-pas? That's all Savoire-Faire (Military), without a +4.

You just need to keep your mouth shut, recognize your superiors, avoid picking fights with guys who have Ranger tabs on their shoulders, and salute appropriately? That's straight Soldier, or Savoir-Faire at at least a +4.

Again, this is only in my humble interpretation.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by acrosome

Ok, then making this roll which would normally require Savoire-Faire (Military) is yet another application of Soldier skill. Whatever floats your boat. But then it starts getting hard to keep Soldier from usurping Savoire-Faire (Military). That's why I favor thinking of Savoire-Faire (Military) as a sort of a higher-order skill for NCOs and officers, covering official ceremonies and high-level hobnobbing. In this vision a general's batman would have it, but not most other junior enlisted. It would also be the skill that the Secretary of Defense has, e.g. even if he doesn't have Soldier skill.

You want to plan a change of command ceremony without snubbing the XO's 2nd wife? You need to be entertaining while acting as Mr Vice at a dining-in, yet not step over the line and end up assigned as mess officer for the next two years? You need to lead an honor guard without committing some monumental faux-pas? That's all Savoire-Faire (Military).

You just need to keep your mouth shut, recognize your superiors, avoid picking fights with guys who have Ranger tabs on their shoulders, and salute appropriately? That's Soldier.

Again, this is only in my humble interpretation.

I think the most important point about Savoir-Faire (Military) is the Influence / Reaction application. Such as getting a general good reaction, appearing impressive in a potential combat situation, getting a good deal in a commercial transaction, requesting aid or information, making a seduction attempt or instilling long-term loyalty - where the target is a military character.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I think the most important point about Savoir-Faire (Military) is the Influence / Reaction application. Such as getting a general good reaction, appearing impressive in a potential combat situation, getting a good deal in a commercial transaction, requesting aid or information, making a seduction attempt or instilling long-term loyalty - where the target is a military character.

Getting a general good reaction? Well, everyone dumps on the poor privates so I'll stick by my contention that most of them don't have Savoir-Faire (Military). A general's batman would have it, and the "Soldier of the Quarter" would- there are actually study books meant to help you pass soldier boards like that. Use the rules for self-study to aquire Savoir-Faire (Military)? I would.

A bonus to a "commercial transaction" in this setting would probably most likely translate into "getting the supply NCO to issue something you want" or "get appropriations for the new widget your unit needs." In which case I stand by my proposition that most junior enlisted would not have this skill.

Instilling long-term loyalty? Also an NCO and officer function, not one for junior enlisted.

Seduction attempt? Hmm- a timely subject. But again, we're talking about officers... :)

Remember- this is just my interpretation. I'm sure it isn't GURPS canon any more than is my medical skills interpretation.

[Ed the Coastie]

GURPS Special Ops (pg 25) suggests the following skills at skill 10- each as being appropriate for a character who has graduated Basic/Infantry AIT:

• Guns (Assault Rifle)
• First Aid
• Savoir-Faire (Military)
• Thrown Weapon (Hand Grenade)
• Spear
• Guns (Pistol)

Soldier isn't on the list primarily Special Ops was a GURPS 3e book, but it makes sense (to me, anyway) to include that at 10- as well; if you are going to go to the trouble of creating a character with a military background, it makes sense to give the character the requisite professional knowledge.

In my own games, I don't go to too much effort to define what the Soldier skill does or does not cover; most of the players I have who play military characters are themselves veterans.

[Icelander]

Most soldiers are not just out of basic training. In any military force with pretensions to professionalism, the backbone of the force is comprised of long-service volunteers. The people on their first year of service are exceptions, not the rule.

Sure, it's viable to say that new recruits who are still uncomfortable with military culture might not have Savoir-Faire (Military) at more than amateur level (ca skill 8-10). But that doesn't mean that the average soldier doesn't have it at skill 11-13.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by acrosome

A bonus to a "commercial transaction" in this setting would probably most likely translate into "getting the supply NCO to issue something you want" or "get appropriations for the new widget your unit needs." In which case I stand by my proposition that most junior enlisted would not have this skill.

That, or invoking the 'oh, the buyer is military too; I guess I will offer a discount' effect.

Originally Posted by acrosome

Instilling long-term loyalty? Also an NCO and officer function, not one for junior enlisted.

Probably.

Originally Posted by acrosome

Seduction attempt? Hmm- a timely subject. But again, we're talking about officers... :)

I kept looking for the link to the moment when Shepard says she thinks Kaiden doesn't show his commanding officer enough respect and should pay for it by doing twenty pushups over there. Or something like that. But the footage I found only shows the softer bits of dialogue.

[acrosome]

NECRO! Since it came up as skill of the week!

Originally Posted by Ed the Coastie

GURPS Special Ops (pg 25) suggests the following skills at skill 10- each as being appropriate for a character who has graduated Basic/Infantry AIT:

• Guns (Assault Rifle)
• First Aid
• Savoir-Faire (Military)
• Thrown Weapon (Hand Grenade)
• Spear
• Guns (Pistol)

Soldier isn't on the list primarily Special Ops was a GURPS 3e book...

As you mention, that's 3e. I'd also argue against Guns (Pistol) for everyone who gets through basic. In US Army basic (circa 1989) we never touched a pistol except for one day when we familiarized on a bunch of weapons, but the only thing taught even remotely intensively was Guns (Rifle). My 4e list might look more like:

• Guns (Rifle)
• First Aid
• Soldier
• Thrown Weapon (Hand Grenade)
• Spear

FWIW, I think it is possible to be familiar (in GURPS terms) with a weapon without having the skill for it. I no longer have Guns (LMG), but I am certainly familiar with the M60. I carried one for two years back in The Day.

And, frankly, I could argue very convincingly against Spear skill. Bayonet training is more of a morale-building exercise nowadays, at least in first-world militaries. The most practical use for it is in riot control. Conversely in the US military at least unarmed combat training has seen quite a resurgence, what with people's interest in MMA and whatnot. It's taught in both US Army and USMC basic, now. Since "the guy who wins an unarmed fight is the guy whose buddy shows up first with a gun", the more basic teaching of Army Combatives and MCMAP concentrate on wrestling rather than blows, and thus in practical terms this might mean at most a point in Wrestling or Judo.

And FWIW I would argue that the optional specialty Spear (Bayonet) should allow striking with a rifle butt as well. But I digress...

Also, the list will be different in other services. For example the USMC, where "every man is a rifleman", may be more comprehensive since they sort of mix basic with what in the Army is infantry AIT- so perhaps they learn Guns (Pistol) and Gunner (HMG). Pistol in particular would seem apropos for their ship boarding function. And Soldier (US Navy) almost certainly includes Seamanship skill. And things may be different since 1989, also, of course.

For those interested the US Army used to publish TRADOC Pamphlet 600-4, colloquially called a "smart book", that covers most of the things that a new recruit is expected to master in basic training. (It even tells you exactly how to emplace an M18A1 Claymore mine.) They still publish a 600-4, but the 2016 version is a very different document that more or less only covers D&C, uniform & insignia, military courtesy, and hot-button issues such as sexual harassment. Such a loss...

[sir_pudding]

Most Marines don't qualify with pistols, just officers and a few specific MOSes.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by acrosome

My 4e list might look more like:

• Guns (Rifle)
• First Aid
• Soldier
• Thrown Weapon (Hand Grenade)
• Spear

No Savoir-Faire (Military)? Why?