08-06-2018, 03:37 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
In a separation from another thread, I'm opening up this thread to discuss what is involved in creating an UPLOAD braintape and the logistics involved...
Let's get down to the nitty gritty where we can, and if more information is required, we'll have to fill in the details as necessary. I'll update this first post with the details as needed for anyone who comes to the thread later on, as well as list the changes needed for the discussion in individual posts... First, Mr. Smith. Per GURPS ULTRA-TECH page 8, we see that TL 10, if progression is fast, we can expect to see TL 10 hit around 2075. So, let's say that the year is now 2080. Mind Emulation process and Brain taping hasn't really been perfected until this year (2080). At present, Sapient Artificial Intelligence is has been seemingly proven to be valid, yet the controversy surrounding it has not as yet been settled by law. Numerous court cases have been brought on behalf of SAI rights, but because most Judges have ruled that Artificial Intelligences are software - and software does not have inherent rights, only HUMANS have inherent rights, the cause for SAI rights has largely stalled. Mr. Smith, ever the one fascinated with new technology, and morbidly afraid of death, has an estate worth 2 million upon his death. He has married twice, divorced once, and leaves behind three children, one from his first marriage, two from his second. All of his children are of legal age of majority, and Mr. Smith resides within the Boundaries of the United States. He's an IQ 11 individual, whose physical attributes and mental attributes total perhaps 100 points (all other points are social and wealth oriented and not something that can be replicated with a brain tape). (this space for extra information as required later...) |
08-06-2018, 03:58 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
So, let's assume that Mr. Smith wants to leave SOME of his estate to his family, but also wants to have a brain tape made, and desires that a trust be created to facilitate his hopes and dreams of having his download be recognized as a person. To that end, he hires a really EXPENSIVE lawyer firm to handle his needs, and the needs of his trust.
First, what kind of computer does Mr. Smith require - and how much will it cost? Answer: per page 220 of UT, we have the requirement that the computer be a complexity 4 + IQ/2 rounded up. That makes it a complexity integer (4+11/2+.5) or complexity 10. So - how much is the CHEAPEST computer Mr. Smith requires for running his software? TL 10 Macroframe starts at complexity 8, and gains +2 at TL 10. This costs a total of 1,000,000 That's half of Mr. Smith's Estate, which means he only has 1,000,000 remaining. Problem is, the lawyers are going to require some form of income, so Mr. Smith, being an astute business type, suggests that the income to be made renting his computer out to run other software, will be significantly high enough that the income can pay for the trust's lawyer's income. After all, a computer can run two software packages of its rated complexity, and he only needs one. So, let's presume the lawyers are paid from the income generation stream so as to simply things. How much does it cost to actively create a brain tape? I'm not seeing anything at this point in time, but there is the requirement that the process be done in an surgical operating theater. This also requires someone with training in surgery. So, for the sake of argument, which can be altered as desired... Let's assume that the specifics of the operation is radical, and costs $100,000. Let's further assume that this cost includes that of the surgeons as well as the rental of the operating theaters. So now, our guy only has 900,000 in funds remaining. |
08-06-2018, 04:21 PM | #3 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
Next step, is to determine what actively happens to Mr. Smith. Two rolls are required to turn him into a GHOST (capitalized to distinguish from the supernatural version, this is the software version!). So let's say that the individual running the procedure is an expert (Skill 16) in both Physician and Electronics Operation (Medical). His services aren't going to be cheap, but that's why the operation plus the theater is $100,000!
So, a theater gives the process a +2 bonus to skill rolls, which, at -5, is going to be a tough process! The physician roll against a skill 16+2-5 was a 16, resulting in a failure by 3. The second roll vs Electronic Operation (Medical) was a 10, success by 3. Per the rules, Mr. Smith's Destructive Brain Taping fails entirely, and he is unable to be turned into a GHOST. Let's go the route of fixing the die rolls for the sake of this example. Let's presume that instead of missing by 3, the roll was only a miss by 1. That makes his one shot at uploading, a low res copy. As such, only half of the points in skills are available, and that he suffers from partial amnesia. His lawyers are bound to run the emulation software despite it not being fully Mr. Smith. His former most recent wife while he was still alive, objects to the emulation software, because it isn't her husband in her eyes. He's missing chunks of his memory and will never be the one she remembers. In the meantime, his lawyers, are obligated by the terms of his Trust, to try and get his upload recognized as a Person. So, faithful to the terms of his agreement, they are going to take the case to court. Problem is - taking the case to court requires money and it requires time. At present, there are NO laws recognizing that "personhood" can be extended to inanimate objects - just as personhood has never been recognized to animals. Animal Rights activists have long championed the rights of animals, and have even campaigned that uplifted animals should have the same rights as a human being. Unfortunately, they have been resisted at every front by those who realize that if a Dog gets rights, or a lab rat gets rights, or an uplifted animal attains personhood, that laws regulating experiments or research and development will have to be revised in a major way. YOU are the Lawyer. How do you get a low res Braintape emulation, recognition as "A person". Argue the merits here as if you were the lawyer. Others of you (KEEP IT RESPECTFUL or this thread gets shut down!!!!) can counter argue the points raised. Use ANY software examples present up to TL 10 in GURPS ULTRA-TECH or GURPS basic books, use anything you feel will bolster your case. Also? If you do cite anything, make sure you cite it in its fullest. For instance - if a given software has a legality rating that makes it illegal to operate at a consumer level, then said software will not be available. Keep in mind, that the computer is vulnerable to being turned off. The Brain tape may be considered an asset - a thing that can be owned, as it is a "thing" - not a person. Last but not least? Let one of you wise guys take on the role of the two wives or three kids of Mr. Smith. For example? Despite the wishes of one of my wife's relatives, her body was NOT given to Science over the objections of her surviving family members. If the Lawyers from the Trust Fund are unable to access the body, they can't make the brain tape. In our example however, the Trust did get the body and did hire an expert, and did (initially FAIL) miss creating a high res brain tape. Let the fun begin... |
08-06-2018, 05:02 PM | #4 | |
Computer Scientist
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
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Re: Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
Quote:
https://www.natlawreview.com/article...-s-decision-ri In this scenario, life insurance and medical insurance could make a big difference. I would expect ghost-rights activists to recruit the life insurance company to bankroll their argument that a functional ghost is a continuation of the same person so they don't have to pay the ghost the meatbag's indemnity. I would also expect the meat chauvanists to line up with the medical insurer saying Smith is dead and none of the procedures of uploading nor the treatment of his shadow are covered medical procedures so they don't have to pay. |
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08-06-2018, 06:08 PM | #5 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
Quote:
By the by, good points made about who would stand to benefit from the change in legal standing, and who would benefit from keeping it unchanged. That implies that the lobbying, if engaged upon, would likely benefit whomever had the largest money chest. ;) Now, let's offer up the argument, that Mr. Smith has a Trust set up, and that they're supposed to engage in certain contractual obligations - to wit, to subject Mr. Smith's body to the Brain Tape procedure. The information in GURPS ULTRA-TECH outright state that there are issues with Destructive Uploads - is it Suicide or is it Transcendence? The game mechanics are even more interesting. If Mr. Smith is DEAD at the time of the attempt, the procedure, already at -5 to successfully complete, is now at -7 instead. It gets worse by a factor of -1 per real time past the moment of death (nanostasis or other means of preservation helping to ease that penalty). So, let's speculate that Mr. Smith dies in a car accident, but is about 1 hour's flight from the nearest brain tape facility. Overall, the odds of successfully having an expert make the brain tape drops from Skill-5+2 (surgical theater), it now becomes one of SKill-8+2 making for only a 50% chance of succeeding with one roll, or a 1 in 4 chance of successfully making both rolls without issue. The odds favor a low res copy or even worse. Now, imagine trying to create a trust whose purpose is KNOWN to be to facilitate suicide? Would not the wife have ample grounds to vacate his will on the grounds that he was not legally of sound mind? If the lawyers accepted his intent to commit suicide, can they be taken to task in such a way as their contract voided because the man was not legally of sound mind to sign such a contract? If the man was CAUGHT preparing for suicide, could not the wife or even the court, require a competency hearing to determine if he was a risk to himself? Note: Destructive Uploads was the parameter chosen because non-destructive uploads not only do not face this issue, but instead, raise a host of other issues - such as unlawful copying an individual, or stealing a lawful copy and activating it, etc. So, you're Mr. Smith. How do you get around this thorny issue of attempted suicide? It can be done, but I'd like to see others supply the answer instead of saying it here and now. ;) |
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08-06-2018, 06:16 PM | #6 | |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
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There's more than one kind of "person" in law (even just US law). "Natural persons", "legal persons", "juridical persons" (if you're in Louisiana). The main attribute of a "legal person" is that it can sue and be sued. "Natural persons" are pretty close to what you think of as individual humans, but there have been exceptions -- notably slaves. Or there's a court case that had to rule that illegitimate children were "persons" for purposes of the 14th Amendment. Corporations were originally deemed to be people so that they could be prosecuted under various laws for their misdeeds. If they were declared not "persons", then they'd be exempt from any law that prohibited "any person" from doing something. Lots of basic laws would have had to have been rewritten. So "person" got a broader definition -- and also an unclear and imprecise one with fuzzy boundaries that have to be tested in court cases. Like the one for Mr. Smith here.) Corporations and other organizations (like foreign governments, also deemed to be legal persons so they can be sued) usually have only those rights that can exercised collectively -- hence the 5th Amendment exception. But the copy of Mr. Smith is not a collective. (The court case diverts for a while to argue whether various threads, subroutines, multiple processors, copies of data necessary for communications and backup purposes while executing the "Mr. Smith" program mean that digital persons are in fact collectives.) Estates depend on state law. They're usually legal entities, but not always legal persons. Sometimes they can be sued, sometimes not. (And when not, there's often a designated "personal representative" of the estate who can be sued in its place, to make sure there's a "person" involved for legal purposes. The PRs aren't general persons, though -- you can't, for example, take the PR's assets to fulfill a debt of the estate. So it's another sort of variant person with some rights and responsibilities, but not exactly like those of natural persons.) The first thing the court is going to have to decide is whether the flawed copy of Mr. Smith is a person. A cowardly court will sidestep the question of whether a properly functioning copy would have been a person, since that question isn't actually at trial, as it didn't come to pass. (Enter arguments about biological humans with disabilities, defects, and accidental damage not becoming un-persons because of their misfortune. It's not the original Mr. Smith's fault that his descendant didn't live up to the best potential of digital persons.) Assuming the court finds that digital persons are a recognized category, a good opposing lawyer is going to immediately take the next step and claim that even though Digital Smith is a person, it is not the _same_ person as the original Mr. Smith, so none of Smith's property is Digital Smith's. Here's where it's worth remembering the old lawyer's joke about the farmer whose neighbor had a goat. One day the goal broke into his field and ate all his cabbages. The farmer sues for the value of the cabbages. The defense opening statement goes like this:
Mr. Smith's lawyers are good, so they might well bypass that entire morass. All of Mr. Smith's assets go into a trust. Mr. Smith's family can be carved out in the will, as they're recognizable persons, as is the trust itself. Once Smith is dead, the trustees are given broad discretion as to how they spend the trust's funds. The trustees are also instructed (in writing, and by Mr. Smith before his death) as to Smith's intent for the trust funds. If the trustees are trusty, they'll do what Mr. Smith wants with that money -- which in this case is to spend it however Digital Smith desires, as if it were his own money. After all, there's nothing saying a group of people can't spend their corporate assets based on the instructions of some model in computer software. That happens all the time in business. Whether or not Digital Smith is a person becomes irrelevant, because he doesn't directly have to own property or inherit. The catch is of course if the trustees are not trusty, and decide to ignore Digital Smith's desires. Oh, yes. I am not a lawyer. This post is not legal advice. Et cetera. |
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08-06-2018, 06:59 PM | #7 |
Hero of Democracy
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
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Re: Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
I agree that Mr. Smith needs a much bigger war chest if he's set on being legally recognized as a human. He's actually got a fairly small budget, particularly if you consider that he's TL10. The procedure was a huge part of his life's savings.
As a lawyer, I'd probably work harder at crafting a trust that lets Mr. Smith do everything he needs to. If you've got a nice set of precedents establishing that SAI do not have human rights, its going to be really hard. Instead, lets set up a trust to unsure he keeps control of his property, and keep in touch with the activists. This is best accomplished through legislation or government policy. Or at the very least chip away at the law piece by piece. As for the Euthanasia, find a country where laws are favorable to that. My first suggestion would be the Netherlands. Foreigners need to prove they have a personal relationship with the doctor prior to the procedure: I suspect a trailblazing first case will meet this requirement.
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Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one! |
08-06-2018, 06:59 PM | #8 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
Quote:
You, the wealthy futurist, who knows this tech is either coming or ready makes sure the courts have the right cases seen and lined up, and that the outcomes come the way you want thus granting personhood rights to Emulations/Ghosts. Then you go and have yourself uploaded and have the inheritance fight. Which is already 2/3 in your pocket. |
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08-06-2018, 07:06 PM | #9 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
Quote:
And you also hit the next in the arsenal of lawyer activity - years of activity in a court can pass before the issue revolving around any action might be resolved in cases of various court systems. Some recognize a spouse's right to determine what happens to the human remains, while others hold to the spirit and letter of the law in what a person's last requests are. I was shocked to discover just how much an executor can extract from an estate legally, even if the original will specifies something else. Then there are those instances where a will might be contested because the person making it neglected to follow some specific point of law. I remember reading somewhere, that disowning someone in a will, is harder to contest if you offer them $1 and good wishes, but that's not something I can verify or even WANT to spend time verifying. Suffice to state - there's urban myths, there's mythconceptions (bad of me to write it THAT way with a lisp!) and there's the truth. Few people realize, just because you won a court case for damages doesn't mean you're going to get the damages awarded to you. Even something as simple as a refusal to pay can cause problems in the long run for the winner of the court case. Then you have to take the person back to court to sue for the funds you were awarded and so on and so forth. I guess in a way, that's why Lawyers as a group, have such a universal dislike. ;) For now? It is my hope that anyone who reads this thread, and looks at what GURPS ULTRA-TECH actually has in its rules, and how GM's can apply those rules as "inferred effects" (such as an automatic -2 applied to a freshly dead body, to the -1 per hour thereafter). Actively exploring the odds of a successful transfer is also interesting. For instance, EVERYONE who undergoes the process, is going to want an expert handling their affair. But when you look at someone who is deemed to be professionally competent (ie skill 12), the odds of a successful event drop dramatically. Skill 12 + 2 - 5 for a live body is essentially a 9 or less on both skill rolls. Toss in the further -2, and the odds of a successful upload becomes diminishingly small for even a very low res copy, let alone a fully successful one. Let's see. The odds of rolling a 9 or less once is 37.5% The odds of rolling it twice is only 14%. That means that roughly only 1 in 10 are undamaged by normal professionals. Ye Gads! |
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08-06-2018, 07:08 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Mr. Smith becomes a GHOST
Quote:
So, as the odds assessment for having two skill rolls for professional level skills (aka 12) produce an undamaged braintape, that means that there are more failures than successes in the ordinary course of things. |
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