Warp Tunnel into Space

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Arcanestomper

The character in question routinely wears sealed battle armor. So getting warped into space isn't a huge problem for them.

That sounds reasonable, but I don't see anything like that on the tunnel modifier itself. So it would be a hard sell.

That was my first response actually. I'm just having trouble convincing the player that that is the proper course of action. So I was looking for an alternative either a rule reason why it's not possible. Or a way to make it possible.

If I understand you correctly, you're the GM and you don't want the player to have this ability.

If you're the GM, then the "physics" of your world are how you define them. If you say tunnels only let people through, then that's how they work. There shouldn't be anything you need to "sell" to your player. And a player who respects the GM will understand that.

That said, if you want arguments.

For argument 1, take a look at the description of Tunnel:

Using your ability always creates a portal of about your size, which lingers for 3d seconds. Anyone may step through it. +40%

It merely says "anyone may step through it." Anyone means people. It doesn't in any way say objects can pass through on their own. Granted, it likewise doesn't say that they can't. Like anything not explicitly covered, that means it's fully up to the GM to interpret and decide how it works. (Above and beyond the fact that you can overrule any rules anyway since you're the GM).

Argument two: Nowhere does it say the portal is two ways. Unlike in the first argument, there isn't even any hidden implied messaging that even comes close to suggesting otherwise. Nowhere does Warp say "two-way" or "exchange with what's there", or anything like that. Even Tunnel creates a portal next to you... doesn't say it makes one on the other side. So it's clearly a way-one door. That means the "vacuum of space" can't possibly affect people on the other side. The opponents would have to voluntarily walk through it to end up in space... they wouldn't get sucked in by the vacuum. Just like opening the portal to underwater doesn't let the water through. On the other hand, with this logic, if you were underwater when you opened the portal, the water would flow through to the destination... but even if you were in space as the starting point, the vacuum still couldn't pull anything back through the portal to it because it's one way... so that effect would be negated.


Finally, if that doesn't work, if it was my player and the player doesn't get the hint (and for some reason I haven't asked him to leave the group), I simply have the villains use the exact same power they specifically created against the party (my long-time players know this and thus never go overboard anymore). So the bad guys will do that to him. Oh, he has a spacesuit. Fine, open a pinpoint gate to the sun and watch him fry as his takes more HP that he has can possibly have DR for. Or make it a major campaign plot: have a bad guy start destroying everything in the campaign using that ability but never facing the players directly (he teleports away whenever the PC are nearby), and the only way the players can stop him is to use an artifact (quest!) that changes how ALL portals work in the universe (to the way you want it to work), thus neutralizing his ability. You've effectively forced the player to knowingly and willingly sacrifice his own power to stop the bad guy. And if the players don't.. have enough rumors in the game about others attempting to do so to stop the bad guy, and then change how it works on the player when they succeed.

Note: I'm normally against this type of railroading or permanent crippling of player abilities in my games.. but in this instance we are talking about a player who is insisting he have a powerful effect the GM is trying to say "No" to. I would ask such a player to leave before it would even get that far.


If the player really wants to do that effect. The proper way to build it - by buying that effect - is an Affliction (Warp), with Area Effect to create the radius for what gets sucked through and Can Carry enhancement to be able to affect the mass of everything to be pulled through... the tunnel is merely a special effect.

[Fnord72]

I'm the player in question.

This is a 2400 CP superhero game.

We have one player with an area affliction warp that can handle something like 20,000 lbs.
Another character has 10000 500 CP allies for 20 CP.


An interesting thing about gate/tunnel is that it says "anyone can step through." It doesn't state from which direction. And none of the wording in Warp specifies how far or close a portal is opened from the character that creates the gate/tunnel. Nor does the wording state that when creating a tunnel that others can go through first, which direction the portal is oriented in relation to the portal creator.

Affliction in Supers states "To send objects away from yourself only, take Affliction with Melee Attack, Range C (-35%). To teleport people or objects to yourself only, base the Affliction on Warp with a special form of the Anchored limitation, worth -40%: anchored to your own body."

This statement is a pretty clear implication that warp can work in both directions.

The point about "people" actively going through a warp instead of things is a valid argument.

In this thread, Kromm talks about modifying warp for things instead of people with area effect. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=1463735

So, as one comment stated, lets look at what I want, and how we can get there.

My superhero is called Portal. I want to be able to open portals (warp gate or warp tunnel or warp area effect). I and people can use them to move from one location to another. Pretty simple so far.

But yes, if I wanted to put out a large fire, opening a portal from the bottom of the lake to the top of the fire by means of a portal would fit my superhero theme. And I could also use the area effect to carve out tunnels underground, on the moon, etc.

At extreme's so would opening a portal 1000 miles down or 200 miles up. (Magma and vacuum). Since I'm a superhero, I'd have to deal with the issues of lethal attacks. That's a very strong control in any game, especially a modern day one.

So Arcane's issue is that the nearly 400 cp I'm spending on a modified version of warp with tunnel and area effect is too versatile, I have to use powers other than warp to get the water and lava effects.

So for about the same number of points (a little cheaper) I have a 10d water attack that is a malediction that ignores range penalties. I also have a lava cannon of 10d that is persistent, linked to binding, wall, etc that causes area damage, again without range issues.

So for the same CP I have two deadly attacks using another means than warp.

What I wanted was the versatility of using warp.

The issue has kinda come down to I end up with A LOT more damage potential but a bit less versatility by using several powers. But what I wanted was more versatility with some damage potential.

As for the character getting sucked into space if they made a portal. Isn't that kinda like stating that shooting lightning from one's fingers shocks the character if they aren't grounded? Or shooting laser beams from the eyes boils the eyeball and singes the eyelashes? Super jump? Able to leap tall buildings? Yeah, but your shoes blow out every time you land.

There's an inherent degree of immunity to one's own powers in every superhero genre. Bruce Willis in Unbreakable had super strong bones, but his skin and organs would have been shredded. Tony Stark would be pulverized inside his suit from blunt force trauma, the list goes on.

So now we're also talking about cosmic modular ability, which is a bit more expensive than warp, but has the same versatility.

And from Powers we have create. Which would also work, but doesn't have the permanence, and isn't moving material from one place to another.

Snatcher (permanent +300%, creation +100%, large items, +50%, more weight: 10,000,000 tons 300%, super -10%) 592 CP. This let's me bring material to me, not send it away. Switching this to the primary and having warp as the alternate would then keep me within the same budget as the area effect warp. But now I have a MUCH larger capacity to bring.

So we're looking for other options.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Fnord72

I'm the player in question.

This is a 2400 CP superhero game.

We have one player with an area affliction warp that can handle something like 20,000 lbs.

Another character has 10000 500 CP allies for 20 CP.

First off, just wanted to state that, re-reading the thread and my own response above, I may have misinterpreted the situation. I got the impression the GM believed this was an "overkill power" and wanted it out. If that wasn't the case - which appears to be the situation in a high-powered superhero game - my apologies if my first response wasn't useful.

Originally Posted by Fnord72

Affliction in Supers states "To send objects away from yourself only, take Affliction with Melee Attack, Range C (-35%). To teleport people or objects to yourself only, base the Affliction on Warp with a special form of the Anchored limitation, worth -40%: anchored to your own body."

This statement is a pretty clear implication that warp can work in both directions.

Here I disagree with your interpretation. That example is still one way. From his location to you... you would not be able to go to him with that ability... even if it made a tunnel between you.

Originally Posted by Fnord72

The point about "people" actively going through a warp instead of things is a valid argument.

In this thread, Kromm talks about modifying warp for things instead of people with area effect. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=1463735

Hadn't seen Kromm's post, but he is clear that a portal doesn't "drag" people through. It's a location thing only.

Otherwise, of interest in the veins of that argument, I also recommend taking a look at the description of Gates under the Gate College in GURPS Magic, if you have it. It's slightly more useful description (e.g., portals are 2-dimensional, portal are opaque, don't let radiation through, etc.), but I admit still not crystal clear on these particular topics (i.e., open to vacuum). I also acknowledge that magical gates do not necessarily equal Warp + Tunnel, but I think they should work similarly.

Originally Posted by Fnord72

So, as one comment stated, lets look at what I want, and how we can get there.

... if I wanted to put out a large fire, opening a portal from the bottom of the lake to the top of the fire by means of a portal would fit my superhero theme.

At extreme's so would opening a portal 1000 miles down or 200 miles up. (Magma and vacuum). Since I'm a superhero, I'd have to deal with the issues of lethal attacks. That's a very strong control in any game, especially a modern day one.

Well, if the issue is that portals don't work both ways and/or don't allow energy/(the effects of) vacuum/water/whatever through the portal, then add a new modifier to do so. What you want here is clearly a variation of Cosmic as you're breaking rules.

If it was just one element added - e.g., only a two-way tunnel to Tunnel - I'd allow the Cheating level of Cosmic for +100%. Since all the things you want are blatantly unfair (e.g., to suck someone out into space), I'd have to instead say Godlike Tricks at +300% is more appropriate (the levels of Cosmic are well defined in GURPS Power-Ups 4: Enhancements)

Basing it on that cost, my specific modifier would be something like:

Physical-Connection Tunnel (+300%): Prerequisite: Tunnel enhancement. Rather than an ordinary Tunnel that just serves as a means for someone moving from one point to another, your tunnel actually physically connects the two locations in every manner: the tunnel is both ways; energy, and radiation will pass through it; light also passes through it so you can see what's on the other side before stepping through; difference in pressure between the two locations will cause the appropriate movement of air through the portal, etc. This enhancement is considered a godlike-level of Cosmic because of the extreme destructive capabilities it grants Warp: you can flood a city by opening a portal into the ocean, suck enemies into space with a portal into a vacuum, or even destroy a planet by opening a portal into a star or black hole. Allowing this enhancement in the game will require extreme GM oversight as it can easily break his campaign.

So, in effect, your Warp tunnel will cost you an additional 300 points.

Originally Posted by Fnord72

And I could also use the area effect to carve out tunnels underground, on the moon, etc.

Yeah, here I'm stumped. I view a portal as 2 dimensional, so it couldn't move a large chunk of rock unless you made the portal underneath it and it fell through. Vacuum is unlikely to suck solid rock out through a portal either. So the above build doesn't work.

Now, here I admit, this is mainly because of my interpretation of Tunnel being a 2-d portal. If you had Affliction (Warp (Area Effect)) without Tunnel, you could Warp out everything in your area, so here you could carve underground tunnels by warping out your pieces. Maybe add a +100% Cosmic (can affect parts of an object, but not parts of a living being) to allow digging through solid rock.

So, assuming my portal argument is right (if not, then your trick works so this is moot), maybe the option here is to add Selectivity (+10%) enhancement, allowing you to turn on and off the Tunnel effect to get exactly what you want. The appearance of a tunnel in this case would just be a special effect.

Originally Posted by Fnord72

So Arcane's issue is that the nearly 400 cp I'm spending on a modified version of warp with tunnel and area effect is too versatile, I have to use powers other than warp to get the water and lava effects.

So for about the same number of points (a little cheaper) I have a 10d water attack that is a malediction that ignores range penalties. I also have a lava cannon of 10d that is persistent, linked to binding, wall, etc that causes area damage, again without range issues.
...

So we're looking for other options.

Ok, then if you want versatility, you only really have two options:

Modular Ability: the ultimate in versatility. You can do anything if you have enough points. You should go this route if you can afford it. Maybe start small, say by buying Warp outside the Modular Ability (so you don't need to get a very expensive one) and using the Modular Ability only for the other traits like the water or lava attacks.

Alternate Abilities: Purchase the other traits, like the 10d water attack as Alternate Abilities at 1/5 the cost, so that saves you points. This is cheaper than Modular Abilities at first, but not as versatile as you can only do the tricks you've paid for. You can always add more alternate abilities as your gain more points... and perhaps arrange with your GM that once you spend enough points on alternate abilities to be the equivalent of a Modular Ability, you swap them (i.e., upgrade)

[AlexanderHowl]

If you have 2400 points, just buy Affliction (Warp) and teleport people into space. If you want a tunnel effect, use Area Effect and Persistent with Extended Duration. You effectively get a tunnel that sucks people into space (puts them underground, puts them underwater, etc).