Knockback and Stunning.

[Bullettop]

Hello all. Pg. 420 of Campaigns says that any injury to the head or vitals that causes a shock penalty may also cause Knockdown. It then goes on to say that if a character is knocked down, he is stunned, prone, and drops anything he is holding. Does this mean that if a character with less than 20 HP (an average human) takes even 1 HP of damage to the skull or vitals, he must roll to avoid being stunned, disarmed, and prone?
In a later Paragraph under Stunning, also on pg. 420, there is a sentence that says Knockdown may cause Stunning. It previously sounded like it always caused Stunning. Is there a way a character can be stunned without being knocked down? Excluding mental stun.
This seems fine for major wounds and crippling injuries but a bit dramatic for minor head wounds. Just want to make sure I am reading this right. Thanx in advance.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by Bullettop

Hello all. Pg. 420 of Campaigns says that any injury to the head or vitals that causes a shock penalty may also cause Knockdown. It then goes on to say that if a character is knocked down, he is stunned, prone, and drops anything he is holding. Does this mean that if a character with less than 20 HP (an average human) takes even 1 HP of damage to the skull or vitals, he must roll to avoid being stunned, disarmed, and prone?

Yes, that's how I rule it.

In a later Paragraph under Stunning, also on pg. 420, there is a sentence that says Knockdown may cause Stunning. It previously sounded like it always caused Stunning. Is there a way a character can be stunned without being knocked down? Excluding mental stun.

There's some Ultra-tech weapons that caused that effect, and I know there's some spells that can do it (Stun being the major one to come to mind).

This seems fine for major wounds and crippling injuries but a bit dramatic for minor head wounds. Just want to make sure I am reading this right. Thanx in advance.

1 HP is a lot more damage in GURPS than in a lot of other systems. Usually a hit that causes physical stun will compromise a person's balance and their hold on their weapon. In fact, some of the rules for concealed armour suggest concealable helmets (which have a thin liner rather than the normal padding) suggest still rolling for Knockdown even if the helmet stops all damage.

[Skarg]

Yes, a point of damage to the head or vitals causes the victim to need to roll vs. HT or fall stunned, and if they miss by 5, they're unconscious. (In 3e, a simple miss would knock them out, making it a lot easier to knock people out without hurting them a lot.)

The part about stunning people without knocking them down is a change from 3e to 4e, which seems to have been done partly because they also changed how stunning works.

In 3e if you took HT/2 damage you'd be stunned and need to roll HT or fall down too, but you'd still be stunned until your next turn, at which point you could roll HT again and if you made it, you could act normally that turn (minus shock penalties, which were not capped at 4, so your DX & IQ would tend to be at least -4, likely more). So you people were fairly often stunned but not knocked down.

In 4e, if you take HT/2 damage you roll HT and if you fail it's the same, you're down and stunned, but if you make it, you're neither, so you won't be standing around stunned. But if you ARE stunned, you also lose your next turn and all you can do is roll to become un-stunned.

I say both changes seemed linked because if they made it so you were still stunned if you made the first HT roll, then you'd always lose a turn due to the new stunning rule.

Personally, I use house rules where all combinations are possible, there's no shock cap, and the amount of damage influences the stun HT rolls, because I like crunchy correlations and injury effects.

[Fred Brackin]

Note that you can't take jsut 1 pt to the Skull(Brain) location. If even 1 pt gets past the Skull's DR it's multiplied by 4. That one's HT-10 to avoid Knockdown and Stunning.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Note that you can't take jsut 1 pt to the Skull(Brain) location. If even 1 pt gets past the Skull's DR it's multiplied by 4. That one's HT-10 to avoid Knockdown and Stunning.

Right, but you can punch them in the face to avoid the skull DR.


I play where doing exactly zero damage to the head or vitals also gives a chance of stun and/or knockdown, having myself experienced this happening without really taking noticeable injury.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Note that you can't take jsut 1 pt to the Skull(Brain) location. If even 1 pt gets past the Skull's DR it's multiplied by 4. That one's HT-10 to avoid Knockdown and Stunning.

It's only HT-10 on a major wound, which 4 points won't be for most people. Of course, if even 2 points of damage gets past the skull, that's 8 points of injury and most people will be rolling at -10.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Right, but you can punch them in the face to avoid the skull DR.

Yeah but then you do not get x4 injury and only -5 to a possible knockdown check, not -10.

Originally Posted by Rupert

It's only HT-10 on a major wound, which 4 points won't be for most people. Of course, if even 2 points of damage gets past the skull, that's 8 points of injury and most people will be rolling at -10.

Just to point out that that no matter what, being able to deal 4 damage in GURPS, against a regular HP:10 person, is always pretty damn severe:

• Dealing 4 cut damage to a limb will cripple it. (Only a -2 penalty to hit)
• Dealing 4 imp damage to torso will also result in a knockdown/stunning roll although not with a -10 penalty. (But at no penalty to hit!)
• Dealing 4 damage to vitals will deal 12 injury and not only a knockdown roll (at -5) but also having to roll to stay concious every turn. (And is only a- 3 penalty to hit)
• Dealing 4 cut damage to face will deal 6 injury and also result in a knockdown roll and at -5 (but only at -5 penalty to hit).

So once you are able to land 4 damage on a regular person they are pretty screwed. Skull hit or not.


But yes, all of my examples need weapons, you can punch for 4 dam even with ST:11.

[Bullettop]

Thank you all for the clarifications. Still not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, blows to the head are common in a boxing match. Boxers would probably have higher stats than an ordinary person and thus could take more damage. However, this would likely mean they could deal more damage too. On the other hand, using boxing as an example again, if a fighter is knocked down he is usually given a few seconds to regain his composure. So maybe it does make sense.

At any rate, thank you all for your input. At least now I know I have the rules right.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Bullettop

Thank you all for the clarifications. Still not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, blows to the head are common in a boxing match. Boxers would probably have higher stats than an ordinary person and thus could take more damage. However, this would likely mean they could deal more damage too. On the other hand, using boxing as an example again, if a fighter is knocked down he is usually given a few seconds to regain his composure. So maybe it does make sense.

At any rate, thank you all for your input. At least now I know I have the rules right.

I should note that trying to run a boxing match using GURPS combat rules is very likely to result in one fighter unconscious - possibly dead - well before the end of the first (boxing) round.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I should note that trying to run a boxing match using GURPS combat rules is very likely to result in one fighter unconscious - possibly dead - well before the end of the first (boxing) round.

True enough,

However I think a lot of head hits in boxing are likely face hits so at least it's probably just a straight HT tests and not x4 inj mods. (there are rules against going round the back and limiting legal target area for a reason in boxing).

I'd certainly rate professional boxers with a good HT score, conditioning being massive part of boxing. A lot of punches are blocked or parried as well "defend yourself at all times, etc, etc"

and of course MA has boxing gloves reducing punching damage by -2

(I bring in last gasp and AP a lot on boxing matches, including having boxing gloves convert some HP damage into AP damage)