December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home - Page 21

JLV · 01-04-2018, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanj

I was think of monsters for TFT last night.

I have a whole bestiary for Tunnels & Trolls waiting for editing & illustrations, but the creatures have a different "tone" than I would think is appropriate for TFT.

As I recall, one of the on-line fan websites had a fairly good bestiary collated some years back. And Marko Tabyanan was doing something similar over on his web site...

Plus CR Brandon published conversions for most (if not all) the D&D monsters for his Heroes and Other Worlds TFT retroclone a year or two ago. (While I think they're a bit overpowered for TFT to achieve his goal of combining the Mentzer edition of D&D with TFT (in OD&D, as I remember it, you fairly sailed through the monsters, whereas in HOW, you can get chopped up by those same monsters pretty easily), they seem pretty close to the kind of things TFT had in the original ITL book in terms of challenge to the players.) To me it looks like he converted most of the original AD&D Monster Manual...

I also recall that someone did a conversion for Tekumel to TFT (though oddly, they missed at least one of the major races when doing so), and that was (and probably still is) posted on the web somewhere.

None of those may be the exact "tone" of TFT, but they are interesting attempts to convert and are rather interesting reads...

larsdangly · 01-05-2018, 09:15 AM

I've also got ~100 monsters from Call of Cthulhu, D+D and various other sources written up for TFT. One issue will be IP rights, which don't allow you to publish new versions of things that obviously come only from D+D. I forget exactly how that works with the core rules open access, but I'm pretty sure its a thing. My guess is that whatever it is Steve does with the official monster presentation, motivated fans will put stuff out on web sites and so forth, so quite a range will be available for people willing to poke around a bit.

Groknard · 01-05-2018, 10:10 AM

I would certainly purchase a PDF supplement or a Pyramid that outlined "formulas" for converting GURPS 3E and 4E creatures to whatever the nuTFT format is. There are decades of great GURPS stuff out there which I've referenced on the fly for conversion to TFT from time to time.

Buzzardo · 01-05-2018, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanj

I was think of monsters for TFT last night.

I have a whole bestiary for Tunnels & Trolls waiting for editing & illustrations, but the creatures have a different "tone" than I would think is appropriate for TFT.

I haven't chimed in before, because my post would be nothing more than "Me, too!" Now that I have an actual idea, I'll say something. However, I'll also say, "Me, too!" I'm really looking forward to the return of The Fantasy Trip. I never had more than the original Melee and Wizard, but I played them quite a bit with the two guys who are the core of my GURPS group today. We've been gaming together for forty years.

Now on to my idea, which was triggered by Stefan's post: Perhaps we could set up a site for shared open-source content for TFT. Where the official product stops, we can continue. For example, I really hope to see an official bestiary, but that still leaves room for adding and sharing our own monsters Similarly, we could share adventures and campaigns. Maybe a wiki?

I know there have been multiple fanzines and umpteen sites dedicated to TFT. I'm thinking of a shared site where lots of fans can contribute.

JLV · 01-05-2018, 01:09 PM

@Buzzardo: There are a couple of fan sites that would be eminently suitable for this. One is Marko Tabyanan's, the other is the Brainiac site. Both have been in existence for a while and have their own community following. By definition, the community following those two sites are "activists" for TFT, and have been for years. So it seems to me that they would be the perfect place to host that sort of thing. Plus, I am absolutely sure both would cheerfully follow any rules that Steve wanted to lay down concerning content, format, etc. for standardization purposes. Finally, if Steve were to say something along the lines of "Check out sites X and Y for unofficial additional monsters, spells, talents, etc." that would be all that most players would need to go find them and decide what they were going to use or not use in their games.

Barring the HT situation (which involves personal issues), I can't see any company actually objecting to a fan site conversion of their monsters, etc, as long as the fan site gave credit to the creating company, and as long as no one tried to sell them for profit. Heck, it's sort of like free advertising, and it might intrigue someone enough to go and check out their own games! Also, arguably, the Cthulhu Mythos (for example) is more the property of HPL's estate (if he even has one) and may even be in the public domain by now, especially since other authors published using his creations both at the time and now, so Chaosium might have a hard time arguing that some other game company, using a completely different game system, isn't "allowed" to do the same thing that Chaosium did! Similarly, the names of various Demons and Devils have been bruited about since the middle ages -- I'm guessing even the old, litigious, TSR would have a hard time claiming copyright on, say, "Beelzebub." In short, this is something that a lawyer would need to actually weigh in on, but I'm thinking the whole idea may not be as restricted as it sounds...

Turning to the hymenopterans specifically, I suspect that all Steve would need to do is to change the name, and possibly some of the details, in order to be AOK on this issue. After all, HT clearly "ripped off" the concept from Jack Vance's The Dragon Masters -- I remember thinking that when I first got Chitin I back in the day! Heck, at least one of the names of the creatures is the same... Which means that he didn't actually "create" the idea. Conceptually, we all know that some insect species differentiate individuals by the task they are bred to undertake, and it's not too far a reach to presume that an intelligent insect race would take that even further than merely warriors, workers, drones and queens. In fact, the entire premise of Starship Troopers (both the book and the really bad movie) was based on precisely that sort of idea, so there's nothing original in HT's adaptation of The Dragon Masters to insects. In short, he might be able to bring a case if absolutely nothing were changed, but it would be a weak case unless he can legitimately claim (and prove) actual trademark violations somewhere along the line.

larsdangly · 01-05-2018, 01:27 PM

It's hard to say how that sort of fan based exchange will evolve because TFT is such an oddity among games that could get the 'OSR' treatment: D+D, Tunnels and Trolls and Runequest all stayed continuously (or at least episodically) in print and underwent many editions and revisions over the last 40 years. Plus the biggest of these (D+D) explicitly opened the door to third party works. So, there is a longstanding and well developed community of fan-based products, zine articles, etc. Traveller is another case; it had a couple of editions but the original has remained one of the main rules sets throughout and, whatever the legal standing might be, there was always a big third party and fan base presence. TFT got choked off just a couple years after publication, had no official support through the pre-internet era, and then really only had a couple of fan sites that were sporadically active in the 2000's. There are two published knock-offs, but one has hit a quiet period, and the other is a relatively small scale business focused on short adventures. So, it is close to a blank slate. My feeling is that the smartest move is to just play your games and chat with your friends online for a year or so while SJG gets organized and then evaluate what role there is for fan sites, magazine articles and that sort of material. Anything people put together now will be out of date in 6 months.

Dave Crowell · 01-05-2018, 01:28 PM

I hope there is some way to include, and further develop, the Hymenoptera. I would not object if this meant they had to evolve on a different path to that laid out for them in Chitin:I as long as the basic character remained intact. They, like the Dragon Masters they are based on, are a fun concept and source of interesting non-human foes.

Steve Jackson · 01-05-2018, 01:44 PM

When the initial "official" TFT website goes live, which won't be too long, it will include links to notable fan pages. Including Ty Beard's, which was mentioned recently - I reached out to Ty, heard back from him, and got a link to his archived site.

Much of the Cthulhu Mythos is in public domain now, but some derivative works are not.

In general, I am going to leave straight "conversions" to the fan sites, and bend over backwards not to violate anyone else's IP rights in official work. So, for instance, don't look for a TFT/Tekumel book unless I actually acquire rights. Do not expect signature D&D monsters like the Beholder to come floating out of a cavern on Cidri. And so on.

JLV · 01-05-2018, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

When the initial "official" TFT website goes live, which won't be too long, it will include links to notable fan pages. Including Ty Beard's, which was mentioned recently - I reached out to Ty, heard back from him, and got a link to his archived site.

Much of the Cthulhu Mythos is in public domain now, but some derivative works are not.

In general, I am going to leave straight "conversions" to the fan sites, and bend over backwards not to violate anyone else's IP rights in official work. So, for instance, don't look for a TFT/Tekumel book unless I actually acquire rights. Do not expect signature D&D monsters like the Beholder to come floating out of a cavern on Cidri. And so on.

Which, I think, is what any intelligent, reasonable, and honest person would do in this regard. Plus, it's not like SJG's lacks imagination in their products or anything, so they hardly need to take chances on possibly infringing someone else's IP in order to do anything fantasy related. Still, it'll be a pity about the Hymenopterans, if they don't make it in there -- I've used them a LOT; to freak out new players especially! ;-) Oh well, I still have my old copies, and can just use them anyway. (Shh! Don't tell anyone!)

larsdangly · 01-05-2018, 05:18 PM

One of the fun things about TFT is that it is one of the few games to present its own menu of iconic monsters that differ significantly from things you find in D+D, and yet they stick with you. Walking octapuses; slimes; prootwaddles; etc. You can stay in your own lane and still present a lot of great stuff.

Make sure you include rules for hordes of little creepy crawlies! Huge packs of rats, swarms of wasps, etc. make for great foes, turning the familiar into the monstrous.

01-05-2018, 09:15 AM	#202
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home I've also got ~100 monsters from Call of Cthulhu, D+D and various other sources written up for TFT. One issue will be IP rights, which don't allow you to publish new versions of things that obviously come only from D+D. I forget exactly how that works with the core rules open access, but I'm pretty sure its a thing. My guess is that whatever it is Steve does with the official monster presentation, motivated fans will put stuff out on web sites and so forth, so quite a range will be available for people willing to poke around a bit.

01-05-2018, 10:10 AM	#203
Groknard Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Cleveland, OH USA	Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home I would certainly purchase a PDF supplement or a Pyramid that outlined "formulas" for converting GURPS 3E and 4E creatures to whatever the nuTFT format is. There are decades of great GURPS stuff out there which I've referenced on the fly for conversion to TFT from time to time. __________________ ___________________ Robert -- Cleveland, OH

01-05-2018, 01:09 PM	#205
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home @Buzzardo: There are a couple of fan sites that would be eminently suitable for this. One is Marko Tabyanan's, the other is the Brainiac site. Both have been in existence for a while and have their own community following. By definition, the community following those two sites are "activists" for TFT, and have been for years. So it seems to me that they would be the perfect place to host that sort of thing. Plus, I am absolutely sure both would cheerfully follow any rules that Steve wanted to lay down concerning content, format, etc. for standardization purposes. Finally, if Steve were to say something along the lines of "Check out sites X and Y for unofficial additional monsters, spells, talents, etc." that would be all that most players would need to go find them and decide what they were going to use or not use in their games. Barring the HT situation (which involves personal issues), I can't see any company actually objecting to a fan site conversion of their monsters, etc, as long as the fan site gave credit to the creating company, and as long as no one tried to sell them for profit. Heck, it's sort of like free advertising, and it might intrigue someone enough to go and check out their own games! Also, arguably, the Cthulhu Mythos (for example) is more the property of HPL's estate (if he even has one) and may even be in the public domain by now, especially since other authors published using his creations both at the time and now, so Chaosium might have a hard time arguing that some other game company, using a completely different game system, isn't "allowed" to do the same thing that Chaosium did! Similarly, the names of various Demons and Devils have been bruited about since the middle ages -- I'm guessing even the old, litigious, TSR would have a hard time claiming copyright on, say, "Beelzebub." In short, this is something that a lawyer would need to actually weigh in on, but I'm thinking the whole idea may not be as restricted as it sounds... Turning to the hymenopterans specifically, I suspect that all Steve would need to do is to change the name, and possibly some of the details, in order to be AOK on this issue. After all, HT clearly "ripped off" the concept from Jack Vance's The Dragon Masters -- I remember thinking that when I first got Chitin I back in the day! Heck, at least one of the names of the creatures is the same... Which means that he didn't actually "create" the idea. Conceptually, we all know that some insect species differentiate individuals by the task they are bred to undertake, and it's not too far a reach to presume that an intelligent insect race would take that even further than merely warriors, workers, drones and queens. In fact, the entire premise of Starship Troopers (both the book and the really bad movie) was based on precisely that sort of idea, so there's nothing original in HT's adaptation of The Dragon Masters to insects. In short, he might be able to bring a case if absolutely nothing were changed, but it would be a weak case unless he can legitimately claim (and prove) actual trademark violations somewhere along the line. Last edited by JLV; 01-05-2018 at 01:15 PM.

01-05-2018, 01:27 PM	#206
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home It's hard to say how that sort of fan based exchange will evolve because TFT is such an oddity among games that could get the 'OSR' treatment: D+D, Tunnels and Trolls and Runequest all stayed continuously (or at least episodically) in print and underwent many editions and revisions over the last 40 years. Plus the biggest of these (D+D) explicitly opened the door to third party works. So, there is a longstanding and well developed community of fan-based products, zine articles, etc. Traveller is another case; it had a couple of editions but the original has remained one of the main rules sets throughout and, whatever the legal standing might be, there was always a big third party and fan base presence. TFT got choked off just a couple years after publication, had no official support through the pre-internet era, and then really only had a couple of fan sites that were sporadically active in the 2000's. There are two published knock-offs, but one has hit a quiet period, and the other is a relatively small scale business focused on short adventures. So, it is close to a blank slate. My feeling is that the smartest move is to just play your games and chat with your friends online for a year or so while SJG gets organized and then evaluate what role there is for fan sites, magazine articles and that sort of material. Anything people put together now will be out of date in 6 months.

01-05-2018, 01:28 PM	#207
Dave Crowell Join Date: Jun 2012	Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home I hope there is some way to include, and further develop, the Hymenoptera. I would not object if this meant they had to evolve on a different path to that laid out for them in Chitin:I as long as the basic character remained intact. They, like the Dragon Masters they are based on, are a fun concept and source of interesting non-human foes.

01-05-2018, 01:44 PM	#208
Steve Jackson President and EIC Join Date: Jul 2004	Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home When the initial "official" TFT website goes live, which won't be too long, it will include links to notable fan pages. Including Ty Beard's, which was mentioned recently - I reached out to Ty, heard back from him, and got a link to his archived site. Much of the Cthulhu Mythos is in public domain now, but some derivative works are not. In general, I am going to leave straight "conversions" to the fan sites, and bend over backwards not to violate anyone else's IP rights in official work. So, for instance, don't look for a TFT/Tekumel book unless I actually acquire rights. Do not expect signature D&D monsters like the Beholder to come floating out of a cavern on Cidri. And so on.

01-05-2018, 05:18 PM	#210
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home One of the fun things about TFT is that it is one of the few games to present its own menu of iconic monsters that differ significantly from things you find in D+D, and yet they stick with you. Walking octapuses; slimes; prootwaddles; etc. You can stay in your own lane and still present a lot of great stuff. Make sure you include rules for hordes of little creepy crawlies! Huge packs of rats, swarms of wasps, etc. make for great foes, turning the familiar into the monstrous.