DF monster classes and Higher Purpose (slay X)

[Joseph R]

It seems apparent from the DFM1 that there are some monsters that might (or even should) appear to PCs as belonging to the Undead "class" of monster, when they are in fact something else, e.g. Construct or Divine Servitor.

Presumably this is detectable by a successful roll against appropriate Hidden Lore speciality, if the PC(s) have it. But what if they fail, or don't even roll? How does that fit with Higher Purpose (slay X)? Does the Holy Warrior still get their +1 to hit/damage if the PC still believes the critter is undead?

EDIT: This question also applies to one of the "demons" in DFM1, as well.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Unwitting Pawn

It seems apparent from the DFM1 that there are some monsters that might (or even should) appear to PCs as belonging to the Undead "class" of monster, when they are in fact something else, e.g. Construct or Divine Servitor.

Presumably this is detectable by a successful roll against appropriate Hidden Lore speciality, if the PC(s) have it. But what if they fail, or don't even roll? How does that fit with Higher Purpose (slay X)? Does the Holy Warrior still get their +1 to hit/damage if the PC still believes the critter is undead?

No. That would be learning "the hard way", as mentioned in the text describing the Ciuaclá. Scholar types are good to have around for such things.

[Kromm]

Higher Purpose (Slay X) in DF means that you have an intuitive (and often supernatural, occasionally hate-driven) grasp of X's tricks, tactics, blind spots, and vulnerabilities, and use this to better resist X's attacks and deal X damage. You'll undoubtedly fight cosmetically similar monsters of the wrong class as aggressively and with as much purpose as you would the real thing, but that provides no benefit. That would be like a WWII hero expecting years of experience fighting Nazis to help him against aliens or elves who show up wearing Nazi uniforms: He might detest Nazis and fight extra-hard against foes who look like Nazis, but his grasp of enemy doctrine and weapons won't do anything special against alien or elven doctrine or weapons, and his knowledge of human anatomy won't be terribly valuable against alien or elven anatomy.

[Joseph R]

I guess this requires subterfuge on the part of the GM. Damage bonus is perhaps less of an issue, but ordinarily it would be fairly clear to a player when the +1 to hit should have made the difference between success and failure. In those instances, the "miss" will indicate the non "X"-ness of the monster.

Maybe that's no different than finding out that your True Faith has failed to Turn the thing, however.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Unwitting Pawn

I guess this requires subterfuge on the part of the GM. Damage bonus is perhaps less of an issue, but ordinarily it would be fairly clear to a player when the +1 to hit should have made the difference between success and failure. In those instances, the "miss" will indicate the non "X"-ness of the monster.

Maybe that's no different than finding out that your True Faith has failed to Turn the thing, however.

Actual such a narrow miss is what I see is a bonus some to tell them They not behaving like you would have expect. which is a great first clue!

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Actual such a narrow miss is what I see is a bonus some to tell them They not behaving like you would have expect. which is a great first clue!

And if your "detection" is "I missed when I should have hit," I think you're really not getting a lot of bang for your buck. That's the worst time to find out that your Higher Purpose (Slay Undead) isn't cutting it this fight.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

And if your "detection" is "I missed when I should have hit," I think you're really not getting a lot of bang for your buck. That's the worst time to find out that your Higher Purpose (Slay Undead) isn't cutting it this fight.

True the setting version of Hidden Lore(Undead) is a better, baring Detect(Undead).

But Say your using Tracking to follow the wolf prints and you have Higher Purpose (Slay Lycanthropes) and faling by one is a good time to tell them That they moved in a way you didn't expect a Lycanthropes move. hence a Clue that they not tracking what they assumed they were tracking

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

And if your "detection" is "I missed when I should have hit," I think you're really not getting a lot of bang for your buck. That's the worst time to find out that your Higher Purpose (Slay Undead) isn't cutting it this fight.

Yep. The only thing worse is stepping forward to confront the zombies, activating True Faith (Turning), noticing the monsters aren't cowering from you, and then realizing that Higher Purpose 3 (Slay Undead) won't be giving you +3 on Dodge rolls against a horde of wormy flesh golems (or on HT rolls vs. their flesh-boring worm attack). Hidden Lore skills and Detect abilities are worth what they cost in DF. Using Higher Purpose as a detector will – and should! – work. However, it's much like finding out whether a hulking brute is wearing a steel codpiece by kneeing him in the crotch with your +10 Knee Strike of Power, shattering your knee, and then hobbling around moaning, "Argh-yep-ouch-definitelysteel-owowow."

I've always given away the truth after the first roll made exactly by 0 actually fails by 1 thanks to a missing +1. "Trying something that fails, just barely" isn't a very useful trigger. It's a bit like an ability that requires you to be punched in the face to activate. Anyway, it doesn't usurp Hidden Lore, which (1) can be used in advance of an encounter, (2) works from a safe distance in an encounter, and (3) reveals exploitable, often fatal flaws rather than merely giving you a small bonus to do the same thing you do to every other monster.