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Old 09-17-2018, 06:01 PM   #21
whswhs
 
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

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This makes me ponder what defines old enough to be classic (they were reprinted in omnibus editions back in 2000/2007, but that's clearly not sufficient).
Well, I can offer two answers:

When nearly all the people who read it when it was new and exciting and they were young and excitable have died, and it still speaks to readers.

When the third generation of readers esteem it highly (the first generation has the enthusiasts; the second generation has the people who don't understand why the older generation liked that stuff; the third generation is when the emotional oscillations have begun to damp down).
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:14 AM   #22
ericthered
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

I'm very fond of the "Wells of Power" concept, and I've been tinkering around with it for a little while. A few comments from my own doodling:

Switching back and forth between the wells and the wilderness can get awkward. Characters will usually excel in one setting but not in the other. Often, Mages do well around wells and warriors well in the wilderness.



Magical wells usually become the limiting resource for the society, which means you get a city around each one.



Wells are easy to defend and hard to attack. This means they should be mostly politically independent, and I'd expect they're all culturally different. I often aspect the wells power for further differences, but that's strictly optional.



While wells are strong against outside attack, they're likely to have some nasty politics. In the end, the Wizards who control the magic flowing up control the city.



Wells allow you to use magic that would be world-breaking in other settings. You still need to figure out what it can and can't do though.


--------------------------------------------------


On the human vs. non-human questions, I've slowly muddled the question in a lot of my games. I played a game for a long time where "Are they human" was a question a world-jumper had to figure out for themselves at each world. And I've come to the conclusion that its probably valid to consider elves, dwarves, orcs, hobbits, and so forth to just be subspecies of humans.



with wells, I like to use one species and let the magical traditions and aspected magic of the wells/cities define cultures and peoples.
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:52 AM   #23
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
with wells, I like to use one species and let the magical traditions and aspected magic of the wells/cities define cultures and peoples.
Wells could have a mutagenic effect on their environment, leading to each well's people being a unique race.

Edit to expand: Suppose that there exist lines of elemental power (from both sides of the elemental conflict). Where these lines cross, the power can be tapped by those with the right abilities or tech. These create the basis for points of civilization. Which elemental power create the nexus shapes the nature of the city and the people who live there - a Fire/Wood nexus is going to have a different character from a Water/Wood nexus, and a very different character from a Dark/Fire nexus. Depending on how many elements you choose to go with, you can have an extremely wide number of combinations, especially if you allow for more than two lines to cross at the same point - or perhaps to have nearby nexii overlap, such that you could have a triangular city with three crossing points (and potentially three elements in three combinations) forming the same population.

Doing that also gives you a strong hook to hang your magic on; it's harnessing elemental power. It'd let you use the Powers system to build magic fairly simply; most people get one or two tricks based on their birth element(s) and some get more powers and become proper mages (or techmages, or whatever).

In the wilds, however, there's either only a single elemental line to harness or the ambient magic of the world away from the lines. City mages would find magic difficult to work with there, and their technology would be unreliable at best. Mages dedicated to a single element might thrive near lines of their element, and maybe be philosophically dedicate to it as well. Out in the true wilds, people might find sanctuary from civilization at the cost of its benefits - whether that's as roaming barbarian tribes or simple agrarian villages depends on the location.

Travel between cities probably sticks to the lines. The Ancients, however, reshaped the network of lines that covers the world, destroying old nexii and creating the current ones; therefore, adventurers have reason to venture into the wild between the lines in hopes of finding Ancient ruins on the remains of old nexii. Conflict and trade between cities is probably strongest between cities that share an element, since at least part of their magic will work in the other city; cities that don't share any element are strange and exotic.

Last edited by Apollonian; 09-18-2018 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:19 AM   #24
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

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Switching back and forth between the wells and the wilderness can get awkward. Characters will usually excel in one setting but not in the other. Often, Mages do well around wells and warriors well in the wilderness.
My conception is that well-tapping is probably mostly tech/objects, so the character most-affected is more likely to be an artificer than a mage.

Also my thinking is that outside the wells you can draw power from the wilderness in the form of a pact, so you might be able to power small things. There's no way you could challenge a well-city, but life outside might still have little conveniences.
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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Wells are easy to defend and hard to attack. This means they should be mostly politically independent, and I'd expect they're all culturally different. I often aspect the wells power for further differences, but that's strictly optional.
There was an earlier version of this setting where the points could be linked by airships that flew along connecting lines of power. If those were in the sky you might be able to have that and the addition of some sky-cities for variety. The routes would still probably be limited-enough that they're highly defensible.
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While wells are strong against outside attack, they're likely to have some nasty politics.
Hence why someone might still want to live outside them.
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with wells, I like to use one species and let the magical traditions and aspected magic of the wells/cities define cultures and peoples.
I'm still thinking about that.

A lot of it is an aesthetics issue: individual humans don't stick out well in my imagination. I like to mix up appearance a lot more in order to help me visualize.
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Old 09-19-2018, 01:12 AM   #25
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

Hello,

GURPS fantasy is an exquisite book; have you checked it? I started playing from that book.

Now, in my experience...

I would say you need to ask your players about their preferences. For example, they may have a different conception about the “generally conceived fantasy races” (elves, orcs, dwarves, etc.). Think about it, Tolkien elves are beautiful, but there are hideous elves in other universes. So let your players suggest some races and then decide what to do with races.

Regarding civilizations and geography, think about the players interaction with your setting. Do you want them to explore uncharted territory? Do you want them to spend more time wandering in a city or in the outside? How will you tie time and space so they can conceive their world as it affects your players? Are you all going to be able to apply your life experience or do you need to make lots of research to be coherent? (Maybe you want them to live in the desert but all of you are from the woods, in real life).

Are they going to be capable of assimilating the world, given their current knowledge? Sometimes players want to be something or someone they actually know. Maybe one of them wants to be Galadriel, but your setting only has bald elves and they are male only (and blue). Or maybe another one wants to be a vampire hunter, and has read vampire hunters 101, I guess this guy will be very involved with your setting if you let him apply his flashy knowledge.

Finally, your setting sounds like “adventure time” to me. Almost no humans, ruins of “techno-magical” civilizations, nucleated settlements... Do you know about it? It could be of aid to having a “picture” of your setting (it does not have to be adventure time, but something else your players can compare your setting with so they can take it for credible, assimilate it quickly and enjoy the game much faster).

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Old 09-19-2018, 10:20 AM   #26
ericthered
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

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Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
Wells could have a mutagenic effect on their environment, leading to each well's people being a unique race.

Quite true. I have a hard time actually making the earth nexus folks dwarves and the wood nexus folks elves. It just doesn't feel true to what makes elves elvish, and when people are purely colored elementally, it has a different effect.


Quote:
Edit to expand: Suppose that there exist lines of elemental power (from both sides of the elemental conflict). Where these lines cross, the power can be tapped by those with the right abilities or tech. These create the basis for points of civilization. Which elemental power create the nexus shapes the nature of the city and the people who live there - a Fire/Wood nexus is going to have a different character from a Water/Wood nexus, and a very different character from a Dark/Fire nexus. Depending on how many elements you choose to go with, you can have an extremely wide number of combinations, especially if you allow for more than two lines to cross at the same point - or perhaps to have nearby nexii overlap, such that you could have a triangular city with three crossing points (and potentially three elements in three combinations) forming the same population.
Yep, I'm working on one setting that's very close to what you describe. I don't use lines, just points, but the elements a location has an affinity for matter a lot. I used 10 elements: fire, water, air, earth, metal, wood, mind, body, light, and dark. That's 45 combos, unless you forbid opposites (in which case its 40). I find they have a huge incentive to trade with each other, because they can produce very different goods. A nation or trade network will want at least one of each element.


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My conception is that well-tapping is probably mostly tech/objects, so the character most-affected is more likely to be an artificer than a mage.
Yeah, that's a strong route to go. It ends up feeling pretty modern rather than medieval, but you've justified it, so its a net bonus. Keeps the tech where it belongs while keeping suspense of disbelief.


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Hence why someone might still want to live outside them.
Its my experience that large cities tend to control the lands around them, but to a lesser degree than the places themselves. But are often very different culturally. The capital of a state and its hinterland are constantly at odds, and the capital of a small region is at odds with its larger neighbors. So what you say is nuanced: its probably easy to escape from the cities most onerous laws, but don't think you've completely escaped.


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A lot of it is an aesthetics issue: individual humans don't stick out well in my imagination. I like to mix up appearance a lot more in order to help me visualize.

That does help. I find that cultures can work almost as well, but I have to invest energy into defining them well. Clothing and voice are often a good shorthand for culture, as is "Home terrain". I can certainly see where you are coming from with that desire though.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:47 AM   #27
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

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Its my experience that large cities tend to control the lands around them, but to a lesser degree than the places themselves. But are often very different culturally. The capital of a state and its hinterland are constantly at odds, and the capital of a small region is at odds with its larger neighbors. So what you say is nuanced: its probably easy to escape from the cities most onerous laws, but don't think you've completely escaped.
James C. Scott's The Art of Not Being Governed talks about the cultural patterns of people in the region that stretches from the highlands of Southeast Asia up into the Himalayas who reject being taxed, conscripted, or outright enslaved by capital cities in the lowlands, and who (he says) consciously adopt patterns of culture that hinder this. One striking feature was that charismatic religious leaders were especially important figures. It reminded me, oddly, on one hand of pre-Monarchic Israel, and on the other, of Appalachian and Ozarkian culture.
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Last edited by whswhs; 09-19-2018 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:54 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

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Yeah, that's a strong route to go. It ends up feeling pretty modern rather than medieval, but you've justified it, so its a net bonus. Keeps the tech where it belongs while keeping suspense of disbelief.
Feeling modern is okay: I don't see why "fantasy" always has to have a setting rooted in stuff from the past.
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Its my experience that large cities tend to control the lands around them, but to a lesser degree than the places themselves. But are often very different culturally. The capital of a state and its hinterland are constantly at odds, and the capital of a small region is at odds with its larger neighbors. So what you say is nuanced: its probably easy to escape from the cities most onerous laws, but don't think you've completely escaped.
Point made. But remember the city can't make too big an impact on the wilderness, which would limit things like roads. There is probably terrain in which people could lose themselves simply because there's no way to get the necessary pacifying force out there. Good job for PC groups, if one wanted to play something oppressive/possibly violent. (Alternatively the PCs could play "negotiators" who are members of the cities who do things for the Outlanders to keep them in good graces.)
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That does help. I find that cultures can work almost as well, but I have to invest energy into defining them well. Clothing and voice are often a good shorthand for culture, as is "Home terrain". I can certainly see where you are coming from with that desire though.
I can see clothing helping, and things like expanding the range of things like hair, eye, and maybe even skin color. Anime humans tend to do very well in my imagination because they're often exaggerated into something that stands out more in my mind.
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Old 09-23-2018, 07:35 AM   #29
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

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GURPS fantasy is an exquisite book; have you checked it? I started playing from that book.
Advice books don't tend to help me think better.
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Old 09-23-2018, 08:06 AM   #30
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Default Re: [Creative] Trying to build a fantasy setting.

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Advice books don't tend to help me think better.
Of course you're under no obligation to use any particular book. But I have to say that sounds odd, given that you started this thread by citing Uncle Figgy's Guide to Good Fantasy as an inspiration for your thinking about magic and fantasy.
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