GT:ISW -- How much of the Terrans' victory over the Ziru Sirka is owed to the Vargr?

[Hero of Canton]

Originally Posted by SteveS

I think the contact plagues explain a lot. Every northern winter on Earth brings new natural biological weapons, soon carried away with traders. Ask any Vilani who commanded a ship as a fourth officer how effective his or her ship was when the captain and third officer were in the morgue and the first and second officers were in sick bay intensive care after someone came back from shore leave with influenza, and Terran survival makes more sense.

I want to believe that the Terran Confederation DID NOT consciously use bioweapons on the Vilani during the ISWs and that the obvious effort the Terran Confederation put into fighting outbreaks of "Terran Plagues" on Vilani worlds was a good-faith humanitarian effort and not a cynical smokescreen.

Hero of Canton

[sir_pudding]

All of the above is plausible. Consider that early Vilani contact with wildtype humans resulted in exposure to diseases that they had no resistance to, diseases that were then weaponized by Terran black ops biowar programs, and that the WHO, Red Cross/Crescent ect. were still making good faith efforts to treat them, completely ignorant of their origin.

[warellis]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

All of the above is plausible. Consider that early Vilani contact with wildtype humans resulted in exposure to diseases that they had no resistance to, diseases that were then weaponized by Terran black ops biowar programs, and that the WHO, Red Cross/Crescent ect. were still making good faith efforts to treat them, completely ignorant of their origin.

At this point in the wars, and even prior, I can't imagine the Terrans being stupid enough to use biowarfare, especially with the danger that these could really mutate into something screwy considering they're facing other humans as well.

It's not like the Vilani are aliens who wouldn't be able to catch our diseases or vice-versa.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by warellis

At this point in the wars, and even prior, I can't imagine the Terrans being stupid enough to use biowarfare, especially with the danger that these could really mutate into something screwy considering they're facing other humans as well.

It's not like the Vilani are aliens who wouldn't be able to catch our diseases or vice-versa.

The bioweapon deployment would have happened in the early part of the war when it was clear we were fighting a vast interstellar empire with centuries of technological development armed with a few decades of interstellar spacecraft technology and the industrial capacity of one planet. There would probably be people who'd think that infecting them with anthrax after we've vaccinated our troops would at least take some of them with us.

[Anthony]

Diseases wouldn't be terribly effective against fleets anyway; it's way too easy to do quarantines. A ship's crew can go months without ever interacting face to face with an outside human, which prevents sickness from getting in if present, and if it is present, gives it enough time to manifest and burn itself out.

The Terrans succeeding during the early wars can only really be explained by the ZS being dysfunctional. Such dysfunction would also account for the Vargr being a problem, and it's quite plausible; that describes the Imperium board game.

[sir_pudding]

Note that the weapons don't have to be successful, or even more prevalent than the natural infection of Vilani populations by Terran diseases to have been attempted at some point in the war.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Note that the weapons don't have to be successful, or even more prevalent than the natural infection of Vilani populations by Terran diseases to have been attempted at some point in the war.

True, but they have to have been successful to materially alter the outcome of the war.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

True, but they have to have been successful to materially alter the outcome of the war.

I wasn't really suggesting they are, biowarfare is historically generally a desperation tactic, although the Terrans do have the genetic engineering advantage to make it more viable than that (but as you say, until you are in a position to infect planetary populations it isn't very effective). Mainly I was saying that all three of: the Vilani were infected by wild Terran diseases they had no immunity to; terran biowarfare programs existed; the humanitarian response was genuine and in good faith, could be true.

I think Terrans attempting to exploit the asymmetry in biotechnology is a no-brainer; whether it succeeded or not.

[warellis]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I wasn't really suggesting they are, biowarfare is historically generally a desperation tactic, although the Terrans do have the genetic engineering advantage to make it more viable than that (but as you say, until you are in a position to infect planetary populations it isn't very effective). Mainly I was saying that all three of: the Vilani were infected by wild Terran diseases they had no immunity to; terran biowarfare programs existed; the humanitarian response was genuine and in good faith, could be true.

I think Terrans attempting to exploit the asymmetry in biotechnology is a no-brainer; whether it succeeded or not.

Not only is it a desperation tactic, it's also one that is potentially extremely dangerous & only very rarely militarily useful.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

(but as you say, until you are in a position to infect planetary populations it isn't very effective).

Even if you're in position to infect planetary populations it isn't very effective against fleets in the short term, though it can cause economic havoc in the medium to long term.