What GURPS needs... now

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I wonder if the main issue is the combat system.

Personally I love GURPS combat but it doesn't work well for people who come from D&D and think, "I attack the orc in front of me," is all the strategy you'll ever need.

On one hand, if you're trying to bring new people into gaming, with GURPS as their first game (which certainly can be done), they aren't going to have any of those preconceptions.

On the other hand, if you're trying to lure people over from D&D, it's possible that this would work. On the other hand, if you're telling them, "Hey, GURPS runs just like D&D," I wonder if you're taking away the incentive to change over. I remember back around 1980 when I first encountered RuneQuest, and my reaction was, "If you're faster, and have a longer reach, you get to hit first? Being coordinated and skilled lets you avoid being hit? Armor reduces the damage that weapons inflict on you? Wow, this makes so much sense!" And really, I never had any urge to look back at D&D, because I'd found a model that was more understandable, and that gave me more of a narrative (though I didn't think of it that way back then!).

I've talked about the player who, I think, was in her first RPG ever with me. This was a swashbuckling campaign where I was trying out a bunch of options from Martial Arts. She had no trouble at all handling combat. Your Basic Speed tells you who goes first; you roll to hit; you roll to avoid being hit; you roll damage; you compare damage to armor, and then to hit point—really, every step of that is pretty intuitive.

[Gollum]

I more an more think that the problem come of us, the fan base.

We love GURPS realism. And we love rules. I mean: crunchy rules, full of these little details which make the game even more realistic.

And authors follow us ...

Just look at how GURPS books are built:

• Basic Set melee combat ... Martial Arts ... Technical Grappling.
• Basic Set guns ... High-Tech ... Tactical Shooting.
• Basic Set reaction rolls and social skills ... Social Engineering ... Social Engineering: Pulling Rank.
• ...

Most of the time, new books add more and more gritty rules to make the game even more realistic and ... complex.

But what about the other part of the players? What about all those who are also aimed at in the introduction?

"Some people like quick, fast-moving games, where the referee makes lots of decisions to keep things moving."

Where are the supplements for them (books which emphasize how GURPS can also be simple to play)? There are some hints, here or there, like the brilliant Basic Abstract Difficulty in the Action series. But it is lost in the middle of books which won't necessarily attract the whole group of players who want simple and quick rules.

Actually, someone who carefully listen to us saying that GURPS can be as simple or as complex as you want, and who tries it, will inevitably be very disappointed. Because it is very hard to see how GURPS can be simple. At the limit, only Game Masters with a very good knowledge of GURPS (several years of practice, at minimum) can make their game simple. The others are lost among pages and pages of details.

So, instead of books that add more and more detail to our game, GURPS could need new ones who explain how to play GURPS in a more simpler manner.

I don't know if it would attract a swarm of newcomers. But it would at least avoid that most people think that GURPS is only a complex game designed for fans of complex and gritty realistic rules only ... Which is wrong, of course, but which is very hard to understand when you don't know GURPS very well.

And it could by the way interest some people who are looking for an easy to play universal game and, for the moment, who flee away as far as they can. Savage World and Fate may be more attractive only because they are apparently more simple to play.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Personally I love GURPS combat but it doesn't work well for people who come from D&D and think, "I attack the orc in front of me," is all the strategy you'll ever need.

It was surely true with D&D Basic Set but it is not anymore with new editions of the game. I played a 4th edition game and our party (five 1st level characters) were slaughtered by only 4 skeletons.

D&D combats require a lot of strategy, and a quite complex one, to use your powers in an effective manner.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I've talked about the player who, I think, was in her first RPG ever with me. This was a swashbuckling campaign where I was trying out a bunch of options from Martial Arts. She had no trouble at all handling combat. Your Basic Speed tells you who goes first; you roll to hit; you roll to avoid being hit; you roll damage; you compare damage to armor, and then to hit point—really, every step of that is pretty intuitive.

Yes. My players also love GURPS. Even a player that was playing for the very first time. I asked her: "Do you find GURPS too complex?" And she answered: "No, I find it easy ... because you do all the calculations for me".

But the problem is for people who want to become the Game Master (those who will potentially buy GURPS). When they see how complex it sounds to run it.

To make a shot you first need to know how many rounds the PC is aiming, and, then, you have to add the Acc bonus, to add the aiming bonus, to subtract the distance penalty, to subtract the speed penalty, to add the size modifier of the target, to add the vision modifier if there is some darkness or fog (and I'm not even speaking about the the bracing bonus and the familiarity penalty) ... And, to do all that, you have quite a lot of tables to glance at (and even quite a lot of pages to flip if you don't remember all those numbers by heart) ...

While, in Call of Cthulhu (7th edition), you just have to make a roll under your skill (with a penalty die if it is supposed to be harder than usual or a bonus die if it is supposed to be easier).

But the worse in that story is that GURPS can be as simple as Call of Cthulhu. Just drop all those aiming, bracing, range, speed, size (and so on) modifiers and assess a simple Task Difficulty Modifier. -4 for hard, +4 for easy. Bam! that's done.

Sadly, there are no books which explains you that it can be as simple as that. Even GURPS Lite (or Combat Lite rules in the Basic Set say that you have to take all the modifiers into account).

Then, people who like quick fast moving games just flee away. And that's a pity because GURPS could also please them.

I really believe that what GURPS needs now is books that clearly show how GURPS can also be simple to play.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Yes. My players also love GURPS. Even a player that was playing for the very first time. I asked her: "Do you find GURPS too complex?" And she answered: "No, I find it easy ... because you do all the calculations for me".

But the problem is for people who want to become the Game Master (those who will potentially buy GURPS). When they see how complex it sounds to run it.

And yet, you know, we aren't hearing accounts of people who want to GM GURPS, but find it intimidating. We're hearing about people who try to find players for GURPS campaigns that they are willing to GM, and can't find many players who are willing to play in a GURPS campaign. I'm not sure that's the same problem.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by whswhs

And yet, you know, we aren't hearing accounts of people who want to GM GURPS, but find it intimidating. We're hearing about people who try to find players for GURPS campaigns that they are willing to GM, and can't find many players who are willing to play in a GURPS campaign. I'm not sure that's the same problem.

Of course.

But people who would like to GM GURPS and find it too complex just never come on that forum - which is mainly visited by people who already are GURPS GMs.

And, sadly, when you look at a lot of threads, things are even worse for people who are looking for a simple game: questions are often very detailed ones about house rules supposed to make the game even more realistic, to take into account physical or biological factors that are not yet taken into account by current rules, and so on ... I'm not blaming anyone here! I do participate in those discussions (I especially posted a lot in the threads about hiking rules, for instance).

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I've talked about the player who, I think, was in her first RPG ever with me. This was a swashbuckling campaign where I was trying out a bunch of options from Martial Arts. She had no trouble at all handling combat. Your Basic Speed tells you who goes first; you roll to hit; you roll to avoid being hit; you roll damage; you compare damage to armor, and then to hit point—really, every step of that is pretty intuitive.

The most difficult parts of combat, in my experience, are getting the player to understand that they have to choose a maneuver (if I choose a maneuver for them what they say they want never works out to anything other than Attack) and convincing them that shooting a gun without aiming at a target more than two yards away actually penalizes their weapon skill.

As a result, I always try to go over these two points before introducing someone to a GURPS game where combat will play a role.

Originally Posted by Gollum

But the worse in that story is that GURPS can be as simple as Call of Cthulhu. Just drop all those aiming, bracing, range, speed, size (and so on) modifiers and assess a simple Task Difficulty Modifier. -4 for hard, +4 for easy. Bam! that's done.

Sadly, there are no books which explains you that it can be as simple as that. Even GURPS Lite (or Combat Lite rules in the Basic Set say that you have to take all the modifiers into account).

Why would you need a whole book to tell you not to use the bits you don't want?

I really believe that what GURPS needs now is books that clearly show how GURPS can also be simple to play.

I could see a Mook-style book on how to configure GURPS the way you want it. I don't see how that would change the opinions of anyone who resists GURPS because they think it's too complex: they're not going to buy such a book.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I could see a Mook-style book on how to configure GURPS the way you want it. I don't see how that would change the opinions of anyone who resists GURPS because they think it's too complex: they're not going to buy such a book.

I would see something more attractive.

A book with really lite rules, even for combat (see my example of a "mere" shot above: the generic Task Difficulty Modifiers Table would fit better than the Range one, for instance). Add to that some adventures with pregenerated characters to play with those rules.

That would show newcomers the simplest rules of GURPS, and would also, for a more experienced game master, be a concrete example of what is a simple game with GURPS. It would, in my humble opinion, be more useful than a long discussion about what to keep and what to drop.

Edit
Note that I would buy a book written by The Mook and/or Colin (Just Roll 3d6). But, as you, I don't think it could especially attract newcomers.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Gollum

A book with really lite rules, even for combat (see my example of a "mere" shot above: the generic Task Difficulty Modifiers Table would fit better than the Range one, for instance). Add to that some adventures with pregenerated characters to play with those rules.

So you want a revised GURPS Lite and adventures with pregenerated characters.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Personally I love GURPS combat but it doesn't work well for people who come from D&D and think, "I attack the orc in front of me," is all the strategy you'll ever need.

I think detailed combat isn't the issue. D&D 4e, D&D 3.X, and Pathfinder all have detailed combat system. And in the case of D&D 4e took as long as GURPS combat to resolve.