Quick Contests and Technical Grappling

[Plane]

This is part of "Grappling Concepts" on page 11 of GURPS Technical Grappling by Douglas Cole and describes "two flavors". It says "techniques that default to ST or HT use the first type" and gives a list of 9 techniques followed by "All other Quick Contests require success"

Is this meant to be a complete list (anything not mentioned requires success) or merely examples ("all other" refers to techniques which do not default to ST or HT)? There are 3 grappling situations which I'm not sure about. They're not in the 'list of 9' but seem to match the requirement of defaulting to ST or to HT when rolling the contest, if not when determining the technique itself.

Change Position (p. 35) is not on the list. While it doesn't "default" to ST or HT (rather to DX, acrobatics or one of the grappling skills) you can roll against the better of Trained ST or Change Position when attempting it.

For comparison: Force Posture Change(p. 37) is included in the list of 9 examples and doesn't default to HT or ST either (it defaults to DX or an unarmed grappling skill, the only difference from Change Position is it doesn't default to Acrobatics) but similarly allows you to roll against the better of Trained ST or the technique.

Pickup (p. 24) is not a technique, it's part of the "actions after a grapple" family and the attacker rolls against Trained HT. So while it's an action/attack that defaults to HT, does not being a 'technique' mean the roll must be a success, or can you 'fail by less' to succeed in this?

Although it says "If you fail the roll vs. Trained HT, you have strained yourself!", I don't think that necessarily means you failed to pick someone up, since it's possible to successfully pick someone up despite straining oneself in the process. Shock from that damage would make

Shoving People Around (p. 25) is also not a technique, but also allows the attacker to roll against Trained ST, so can they simply "fail by less" to succeed, or do they need to make their base roll?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Plane

It says "techniques that default to ST or HT use the first type" and gives a list of 9 techniques followed by "All other Quick Contests require success"

Is this meant to be a complete list (anything not mentioned requires success)

I remember (vaguely) that the reason each is listed, with page reference, is because it's a complete list.

So if it ain't on the list, you have to roll under as well as win.

If you're rolling against any sort of DX-based skill, you MUST roll under. If you biff it, you do it wrong and that's it.

If you're rolling against Trained ST, you're trying to leverage your experience to increase your effective ST. If you biff the roll, you did it wrong and that's it. The fact that Trained applies means there's a right way to do it, and if you do it wrong, you biffed it.

That's the way the rules were intended. No one will stop you, of course, from saying "if you're rolling against pure ST in any contest, you're just using brute force and can use the first type; as long as you win, you can do it."

[Plane]

Since it's a list of 9 techniques, I'd wondered if perhaps Shoving People Around (ST-based) / Pickup (HT-based) weren't on it for merit of not being techniques.

Do you remember why, when they default / operate so similarly, you included Force Posture Change but not Change Position?

Strength as Proxy for Mass (p. 20) applies against both and I'm wondering about ways to increase likelihood of success. Going below 1/3 FP reduces ST to half (rounded up) which sounds like a great way.

When someone falls unconscious automatically at -1xFP would that reduce ST to 0 so that they roll against a skill of -4 (so even a 3 gives a Margin of Failure of 7, so you just need to fail by 6 or less to win a Force Posture Change)?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Plane

Since it's a list of 9 techniques, I'd wondered if perhaps Shoving People Around (ST-based) / Pickup (HT-based) weren't on it for merit of not being techniques.

That might be a legacy of my martial arts training, where we call any move a "technique." It's also somewhat likely that we looked through the techniques section, and not Actions after a Grapple. Was five years ago or more . . . answer fuzzy.

Do you remember why, when they default / operate so similarly, you included Force Posture Change but not Change Position?

Truly? No. There are many things, though, that don't DEFAULT to ST, but can be USED with ST or Trained ST. It looks like in many cases if there's not a ST default listed, it doesn't get included.

Strength as Proxy for Mass (p. 20) applies against both and I'm wondering about ways to increase likelihood of success. Going below 1/3 FP reduces ST to half (rounded up) which sounds like a great way.

When someone falls unconscious automatically at -1xFP would that reduce ST to 0 so that they roll against a skill of -4 (so even a 3 gives a Margin of Failure of 7, so you just need to fail by 6 or less to win a Force Posture Change)?

If someone falls unconscious they drop prone. Is all you need to do is let gravity do its work. I'd suggest for KO'd foes, you treat them as objects and move 'em around with Ready maneuvers.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If someone falls unconscious they drop prone. Is all you need to do is let gravity do its work. I'd suggest for KO'd foes, you treat them as objects and move 'em around with Ready maneuvers.

In a world where you've got a martial arts master with "Extra Attack 5 (Wrestling Only -20%) [100]" you could probably get more done using the technique a bunch instead of readies.

If using the gradual 10% decline in ST per 20% loss in FP you had in Last Gasp, you could have them at 10% ST when they're at -0.8xFP and still technically be able to resist to some degree...

Although at 10% ST it probably wouldn't take many Control Points to reduce their effective ST. If effective ST is reduced via either Fatigue or Control Points, I'm wondering if the roll via ST-4 is adjusted or if it will always resist at max ST due to unchanging mass since it's explained as passive rather than active resistance.

The "may" and "can" makes it sound optional and if it's indeed passively an aspect of your mass, I wonder if you even CAN waive it if you wanted to allow someone to help you stand, or allow them to use you to stand.