Tech Level Question

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by naloth

TL is really just to be a shortcut for describing what things are present. If you could come up with a similar way for logical groupings on other things, it can be useful shorthand.

My experience is that such shorthand is prone to obscuring more than it reveals.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Anthony

My experience is that such shorthand is prone to obscuring more than it reveals.

Very true. I see TL more of a quick hazy reference guide then shorthand. Though once divergence tech, magic and/or superscience enter even that hazy picture breaks down fast.

I mean just what would a TL3^ (common magic) society really look like? Would it even still be TL3 or would it be ETL5-6 with a TL3 "skin"?

Would castles and knights even exist in such a world if a dragon or mage could hover in the sky out of the range of most arrows and drop flaming death on those below?

More over if one make the (reasonable) assumption that any predictions in science fiction about future tech will be TL(current+x) likely with some superscience thrown in. So TOS Star Trek is TL(7+2)^ while the later incarnations are TL(8+1)^ for no other reason that we don't have a handle on what TL9 will really look like and there is a lot of superscience floating around.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

I mean just what would a TL3^ (common magic) society really look like? Would it even still be TL3 or would it be ETL5-6 with a TL3 "skin"?

The Basic Set and the Tech books don't describe societies with a ^; only specific technologies that rely on superscience are described with ^.

(Yes, I know an author once described a parallel Earth society with a ^. That's not according to how TLs are described.)

So you wouldn't have a TL3^ society. You would have a TL3 society that includes ubiquitous use of TL^ technology. If the ^ represents magic as a power source, then technologies that are developed with it at TL3 would be described with TL3^. If magic had been discovered at an earlier TL, there might be TL0^, TL1^, or TL2^ technologies out there too. But a sword made by non-magical processes would still be just TL3.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by maximara

Would castles and knights even exist in such a world if a dragon or mage could hover in the sky out of the range of most arrows and drop flaming death on those below?

Yes, but castles would be designed differently. And depending on the nature of the threats, warfare would be very different as well.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

The Basic Set and the Tech books don't describe societies with a ^; only specific technologies that rely on superscience are described with ^.

(Yes, I know an author once described a parallel Earth society with a ^. That's not according to how TLs are described.).

A (ie one) parallel Earth?!? GURPS Infinite Worlds is full of them and various supplements have added to the list.

"They range in point value from Professor William Headley, at 200 points, up to C31R07, at 1,665. For more details about their home timelines,see GURPS Infinite Worlds." (B307)

Haut-Crunet Louis d'Antares' (B312) home reality of Cyrano with its TL5+4 (space travel, TL4^) was planned to be in GURPS Infinite Worlds but got cut for space reasons and was put into GURPS Infinite Worlds - Lost Worlds.

Furthermore, "Players of Infinite Worlds, GURPS Fourth Edition’s official setting, will find these books extremely valuable." B566

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

So you wouldn't have a TL3^ society. You would have a TL3 society that includes ubiquitous use of TL^ technology. If the ^ represents magic as a power source, then technologies that are developed with it at TL3 would be described with TL3^. If magic had been discovered at an earlier TL, there might be TL0^, TL1^, or TL2^ technologies out there too. But a sword made by non-magical processes would still be just TL3.

Not if there are magical materials floating around per GURPS Fantasy and real old versions (ie 1st and 2nd) of AD&D. Real world TL4 alchemy could produce high explosives (with predictable results) something that would not really be understood until TL6.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Yes, but castles would be designed differently. And depending on the nature of the threats, warfare would be very different as well.

Past a certain point castles simply wouldn't exist and warfare would be so different that it wouldn't be TL3 anymore.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

A (ie one) parallel Earth?!? GURPS Infinite Worlds is full of them and various supplements have added to the list.

Infinite Worlds does not list any worlds as being TL<something>^; it lists lots of technologies that are TL<something>^, but they exist on worlds that are TL<something>. Which matches what I said.

I did not say that only one parallel Earth has been described for Earth.

Not if there are magical materials floating around per GURPS Fantasy and real old versions (ie 1st and 2nd) of AD&D.

I can only assume you are deliberately twisting what I said. If a mundane sword is made on a TL3 world that has some TL3^ magical technology, that sword is TL3.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I can only assume you are deliberately twisting what I said. If a mundane sword is made on a TL3 world that has some TL3^ magical technology, that sword is TL3.

The relationship between TL(x+y) and TLx^ is weird. It seems to signify at what TL the superscience occurred at rather then the current TL.

Cyrano serves as a case study with its TL(5+4) (space travel, TL4^). When you sit down with that it doesn't make much sense if you read that TL4^ as the current space tech level as some TL5 never mind TL(5+4) materials should have gone into the spaceships increasing the space travel TL.

It is like the electrical distribution network which has a mixture of TL6 (the very old stuff from the 1890s-1930s that is still operating), TL7 (nuclear power plants and long distance distribution lines), and TL8 (computerized distribution relays). Yes much of it is TL7 but there are still those TL6 and TL8 parts of it.

"Note that TLs have start dates but not end dates. The innovations of a given TL fade as those of higher TLs displace them, but they rarely vanish completely. A blacksmith in 1850s England uses TL3 techniques to shoe the horses that pull the carriage the gentleman rides to catch his TL5 train to London – and those techniques might still exist in TL8, albeit as a quaint hobby." (B511)

Back to the sword. Thanks to the alchemists TL4 crucible steel is available. The maker of swords goes and gets some of this TL4 crucible steel and puts it into his kiln that has that clay that causes the oven to be hot enough to melt this steel. He then pores it into a mold and when it has cooled enough uses his craft to add the hilt and sharpens it.

With the exception of crucible steel every step of the above is available at TL3 (heck it is available at TL2!) What TL is the sword?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by maximara

With the exception of crucible steel every step of the above is available at TL3 (heck it is available at TL2!) What TL is the sword?

TL3, assuming that was the TL of the original weapon. Higher TL materials - or even processes - that make crafting easier/more reliable (like crucible steel, which gives a bonus to MoS for determining weapon quality) don’t make the end result of a higher TL, unless it adds utility unavailable at the lower TL. Adding an armor divisor to a dagger would increase its TL - to (iirc) 4 if it’s the hardened steel from LTC2, or 9 if it’s Superfine from UT - because that isn’t available at lower TL’s. At least, that’s how I would interpret things.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by maximara

The relationship between TL(x+y) and TLx^ is weird. It seems to signify at what TL the superscience occurred at rather then the current TL.

TL(x+y) seems to have a few of different, related meanings. It can mean "technology historically superseded after TL x instead advanced an additional y TLs" or "technology that is as capable as something of y extra levels of TL, despite using paradigms that fit under a TL x veneer."

Steampunk can do either. Reciprocating steam engines developed further than they were historically instead of being largely abandoned in favor of turbines and internal combustion, or mechanical computers arbitrarily more powerful than should be possible.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by RyanW

TL(x+y) seems to have a few of different, related meanings. It can mean "technology historically superseded after TL x instead advanced an additional y TLs" or "technology that is as capable as something of y extra levels of TL, despite using paradigms that fit under a TL x veneer."

Steampunk can do either. Reciprocating steam engines developed further than they were historically instead of being largely abandoned in favor of turbines and internal combustion, or mechanical computers arbitrarily more powerful than should be possible.

The problem with TL(x+y) is that Steampunk used TL(5+1) for three things: Divergent Tech, superscience, and actual TL6 technology.

"Sulfanilamide is classified as TL(5+1), but it was also a TL6 medication; no penalty should apply to the skills of Chemistry/TL6 or Physician/TL6 for working with it." ([[GURPS Steamtech]] 7)

So you can have "normal" TLz (where z=x+y) stuff side by side with TL(x+y) stuff.