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Old 06-18-2018, 01:51 PM   #31
edk926
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

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Originally Posted by Railstar View Post
The problem with this line of thinking is Enchant seems to do nothing until at skill 15+, which brings us back to "how did the Enchanter gain skill 15 to begin with?" But Enchantment rules are an issue.
I'm going to arbitrarily say that Enchant below skill level 15 means that they are still learning the theoretical knowledge behind it and getting down the precise ceremonial motions required for it. The smarter and/or more magically inclined can pick up the process faster.

Alternatively, Enchant below 15 just creates "useless" Enchantments. The spell doesn't keep permanency. The object doesn't last. etc. Thus they practice on cheap trinkets until they reach a point where they manage their first truly successful enchantment, which would officially mark the point their skill level has hit 15 for Enchant, and if applicable, the other spell they are enchanting with.

Or you can just wave it off as "Fantasy Magic".
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:02 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
What do you think? Should enchanted items cost 5x as much as they do in Magic? Or do you think that it is fine that they cost as much as they do in Magic?
1. The prices for magic items are almost entirely derived from GURPS Magic, which, with minimal changes to bring it up to 4E standards, dates back to 1989!

There have been literally hundreds of GURPS books and tens of thousands of pages of source material written for the game since then, which negate some or all of the core economic assumptions made in that book.

2. The only reasonable choice is to toss the outdated rules and rethink the role of enchantments in any given campaign.

That is, the GM must work backwards from the premise, "How rare/expensive do I want magic items to be in my campaign?" and adjust the costs of magic items from there.

3. Based on the GM's choice in Step 2, s/he must then adjust the costs of enchanting an item, including enchanters' salaries.

4. Based on the GM's choices in Step 3, s/he must then adjust the assumptions governing magic in the campaign, the number of available enchanters, the difficulty of enchanting magic items, and the requirements needed to become an enchanter.

Example:

Cheap magic items, with lower cost items being readily available to the middle classes and small businesses.

Ergo:

Cost of at least some magic items be just a fraction of a middle class monthly or yearly income (e.g., a small appliance or a computer), or else easily purchased on credit with monthly payments which only represent a fraction of monthly income (e.g., a car, or a house in the less expensive parts of the world).

Ergo:

Enchanters must be far more efficient than the rules imply or there must be far more mages in the campaign world who are capable of casting Enchantment.

Ergo:

1. Considerably lower mana costs for (certain) enchantments, allow more mana to be put into an enchantment, allow ceremonial castings for enchantments with lots of helpers, GURPS Technomancer "industrial enchantment," etc.

This has the knock-on effect of making senior enchanters the equivalent of master craftsmen in a major studio or shop, with corresponding Reputation, Status, and Wealth (e.g., Leonardo Da Vinci, Louis Comfort Tiffany, Ettore Bugatti, Dale Chihuly).

Depending on skills required, FP expenditures, risk, etc. wages for junior enchanters will be somewhat to much lower than those of their bosses. (Example: If ceremonial enchantments are allowed, being a professional magic ceremony participant might be a Struggling or Poor job since the only requirements are a belief in what the enchanter is trying to do and the willingness to be drained of 1 FP multiple times per day.)

2. Far more people are just as competent as a mage capable of casting the Enchantment spell. That is, just about every adult human is built on 100+ character points or equivalent!

3. Requirements to learn the Enchantment spell are far lower, increasing the number of available enchanters while simultaneously depressing wages for "mage workers."
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:14 PM   #33
hal
 
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Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

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Originally Posted by edk926 View Post
I'm going to arbitrarily say that Enchant below skill level 15 means that they are still learning the theoretical knowledge behind it and getting down the precise ceremonial motions required for it. The smarter and/or more magically inclined can pick up the process faster.

Alternatively, Enchant below 15 just creates "useless" Enchantments. The spell doesn't keep permanency. The object doesn't last. etc. Thus they practice on cheap trinkets until they reach a point where they manage their first truly successful enchantment, which would officially mark the point their skill level has hit 15 for Enchant, and if applicable, the other spell they are enchanting with.

Or you can just wave it off as "Fantasy Magic".
You do realize, under GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC rules, a skill 11 enchanter can enchant a power 15 MAGIC item right?

So few people paid attention to the rule that permits a mage to take 2x longer to enchant an item and have a modified skill (and thus power) of +4.

Last edited by hal; 06-18-2018 at 03:17 PM. Reason: I hate kindle autocorrect!
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:18 PM   #34
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

Wouldn't the best way to evaluate that be to compare it with something astronomically expensive or even unsaleable in the real world. Like say, a fabulous and unique art object, or even a weapon of mass destruction? Aurel Stein got the Diamond Sutra pretty cheap but the seller did not know what he was selling.

Or an even better comparison would be to look up the price of relics in the Middle Ages. Those actually could be had for money but really were thought to have powers associated with them.

Also to keep proper respect for the genre, it might be best to make the price of a magical object be something unusual. Perhaps it would not serve a master who just got it for money. What is the price of a Silmaril (the hand of an elf princess)? Or the One Ring (undead enthrallment)? Even Frodo's mail shirt was worth more then the GDP of the Shire.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:27 PM   #35
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Earth to Stone is especially problematic for fantasy economics because it allows the transformation of massive amounts of earth into bronze and, with Essential Earth, the transformation of massive amounts of Essential Earth into adamant and/or orichalcum.
The alternative is to make the energy cost to transmute stone to metal, especially semi-precious metal like bronze, MUCH higher. Ditto for using Essential Earth to create adamant/orichalcum.

I've HR that using any spell to permanently create economically valuable "whatever" must cost more. Perhaps 1 FP per $25 of value created.

For example, a modern-day mage who knows Create Plant can spend 15 points to permanently create a "tree" of perfectly straight-grained, old growth (30 m tall!) Madagascar rosewood. In itself, the tree is probably worth over $1 million due to its value in woodworking and its highly endangered status.

With a decent Powerstone, a single mage can cast this spell in just 15 seconds! With a ceremonial casting and a large enough group, he can cast the spell dozens of times per day!

"Realistically," (i.e., without the GM saying, "No.") the mage could make himself and his friends all millionaires before they crash the timber market/bring down the wrath of law enforcement on them.

In that case, I'd charge a minimum of 40,000 FP per casting!
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:46 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Go through GURPS MAGIC spells carefully with an eye towards "does this need to be fixed or no?"
Since it's a VERY old supplement, suggestions on how to fix the more badly broken GURPS Magic spells date back to the last millennium.

Once upon a time, in an age when computer monitors were cube-shaped, discs were floppy, and RAM was measured in kilobytes, the more useful suggestions from GURPS-net mailing list, rec.games.frp.gurps, Illuminati Online, etc. were archived.

Do they still exist within the eldritch, umbrageous, and disremembered reaches of the web? They might retain instructional value for the callow, the innocent, and the damned.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:55 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

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Originally Posted by edk926 View Post
Alternatively, Enchant below 15 just creates "useless" Enchantments.
Alternately, it creates unreliable enchantments.

Say that Enchant 15 is the minimum level required for fully reliable enchantments which fail to work only if the user rolls a CF.

Each level of skill below 15 reduces the reliability of the item by 2, from a base value of 16, meaning that a mage who knows Enchant at level 12 can only produce items which work on a 12-.

Additionally, the GM could rule that any CF when using an enchantment produced by a mage with skill <15 self-destructs!

You could also allow qualified enchanters to work at less than full skill to reduce enchantment costs and speed production but at greater risk of failure and/or the choice to produce unreliable magic items.

That could be a really fun assumption for certain games, since it creates a whole market of cheap, but unreliable, magical gadgets, with attendant potential for misrepresentation and fraud.
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Old 06-18-2018, 04:17 PM   #38
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

In the case of Enchant, I think that it would be appropriate to remake the spell entirely. I would have it create magical gadgets, with enchanters effectively 'training' the magical gadget. The types of abilities that they give the magical gadget would depend on the spells or rituals that they knew at 15+.

With Slow and Sure Enchantment, every enchanter involved would effectively provide the magical gadget with (Enchant/2, rounded up) hours of normal training with eight hours of work. A team of five enchanters with Enchant-15 led by a master enchanter with Enchant-20 could give the magical gadget 40 hours of training every eight hours of work, around 1 point per week. The enchanters could take off two days every week while working without penalty, but the training would end with more than two days off, with the magical gadget manifesting a limited ability if the enchantment was not done.

With Quick and Dirty Enchantment, every enchanter could sacrifice up to (Enchanter/2, rounded up) points of traits per hour to give the magical gadget an equal amount of points of abilities per hour. The same team of enchanters could sacrifice forty-eight points worth of positive traits every hour to create a magical gadget. When they stop, the magical gadget is complete, whether they intended to stop or not.
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Old 06-18-2018, 05:49 PM   #39
edk926
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
The alternative is to make the energy cost to transmute stone to metal, especially semi-precious metal like bronze, MUCH higher. Ditto for using Essential Earth to create adamant/orichalcum.

One of the Pyramids has a variety of Metal spells including Stone to Metal. Have that spell be required to transform Earth to anything beyond a type of stone. Make that spell either rally difficult to get or outlaw it altogether.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:12 PM   #40
Anthony
 
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Default Re: The Economics of Enchanted Items

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
You do realize, under GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC rules, a skill 11 enchanter can enchant a power 15 MAGIC item right?
Wrong. There are two separate requirements: caster and assistant know spell at 15+, and final item power must be 15+. Trading energy for skill only increases item power, it has no effect on the first requirement.
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