In Nomine, minus the angels

[Elberon]

Originally Posted by Jason

Oh, bother. I just kind of figured that there were no Heavenly Tethers actively claimed anymore, or that if there were, they would be entirely secret. It never occurred to me to question whether Heaven would just abandon its Word-bound seneschals to die alone on earth, or even strip them of their Words during the mass recall -- though, given that this is a relatively low-contrast game, either of those explanations is certainly what rumor would suggest.

I suppose the cop-out answer is that no one knows how Heaven handled this ... thanks for making me address this, though.

I think Baal would certainly do raids against known tethers once a decade to see if things have changed, I won't mention the fun Belial would have taking out as many as he could. If I was a PC and I wanted to test the theory it is what I would do - possible Notre Dame. You might want/ need to address it

Two funny thoughts...
-There are only 50 or so known Angelic tethers left in the world and they are defended by Demons so that Hell has some reference points and like seen Angels the last known tether was formed during the 15th century or some such.
-Demons bet on contests such as how close can you get to a tether (in celestial form) or 'count coup' by stealing something from the tether (demons of Theft aren't normally allowed to play this one)

I really love the idea of soldier defending tethers out act of faith, they'll never see angels to prove that heaven exists (they wouldn't even get songs, perhaps a quest to get a relic or some such)

A grigori at the locus of a tether (technically they are still in heavenish if you squint at it long enough) with unaware soldiers guarding them and the ace in the hole..... Michaels Saint network, seriously can you see not having that in place.

Do you have any notes written up for this beyond the bits on this thread - I am seriously tempted to run something along similar lines...

Chris

[Jason]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

At least some Tethers could have Soldiers guarding them, either inheritors of a long tradition or just people who have found them and adopted them.

Good point. Come to think of it, that fits well with what I was planning on doing anyway, in some ways. I have a Holy Order of Soldiers headquartered in Philly's Masonic Temple who guard it as a sacred location, though even they aren't necessarily sure of where it truly links in the celestial realm...

One question now occurring to me is how much do Soldiers of Heaven know about the War, and how accurate is it? Without angels to give them the facts, at a minimum there is going to be drift in what they think they know.

Maybe Soldiers have prophetic dreams that might be sent by angels, or perhaps they are just a side effect of Symphonic awareness.

Soldiers of Hell know quite a bit about (the demonic perspective of) the War, though these Soldiers are relatively few in number, basically only recruited for when demons need someone who can get things done without disturbance.

Soldiers of Heaven have been pretty much in the dark since the 8th century, when angels pulled out of earthly affairs. I am deliberately not giving them prophetic visions provided by angels because this is a low-brightness, low-contrast campaign, in the terms used in the Game Master's Guide; things are supposed to look kind of vague and hopeless, and it's not supposed to be entirely clear that the Soldiers of Heaven are really doing any good at all, dedicated though they may be.

(In actuality, it will probably become clear to my PCs pretty quickly that the local Hunters are not really to be trusted, but the Vatican-sponsored Purifiers have some decent souls among them, even as both operate without any overt angelic guidance.)

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Jason

It never occurred to me to question whether Heaven would just abandon its Word-bound seneschals to die alone on earth, or even strip them of their Words during the mass recall -- though, given that this is a relatively low-contrast game, either of those explanations is certainly what rumor would suggest.

Is there some reason why the Word-bound seneschals would abandon their posts? The Tethers do extend into Heaven, after all; their celestial guardians would merely be on station at that end instead of on Earth. Sure, a demon might follow the Tether to Heaven, but then the demon has to worry about the seneschal and the Light of Heaven at the same time. Ouch.

As for why the demons haven't destroyed the Tethers while their seneschals are in Heaven... that's pretty much been answered already.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Is there some reason why the Word-bound seneschals would abandon their posts? The Tethers do extend into Heaven, after all; their celestial guardians would merely be on station at that end instead of on Earth. Sure, a demon might follow the Tether to Heaven, but then the demon has to worry about the seneschal and the Light of Heaven at the same time. Ouch.

As for why the demons haven't destroyed the Tethers while their seneschals are in Heaven... that's pretty much been answered already.

The only reason I could imagine such seneschals would abandon their posts is if they were ordered to. Nobody in the non-canonic game world I'm working with here is quite sure why Heaven ordered the apparent mass-retreat, but the working theory is that Heavenly intervention and presence in the corporeal is strictly forbidden so as to give humanity more freedom to determine its own future. Demons also commonly assume that the Host is determined to puritanically deny Heaven to those who haven't yet "earned" it, and Tethers would be too much of a taste of real Heaven, but this may just be infernal cynicism at work.

Because humans are the ones creating Tethers, it's not that Tethers to Heaven never form so much as that they are never stabilized. And as for the old Tethers, leaving behind a seneschal to take care of them would violate the new Pax Dei prohibition of angelic interference on Earth, though Soldiers were probably left in charge of many of them. Of course, those soldiers would be long dead by now, as they angels retreated in 745ish AD.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Jason

Because humans are the ones creating Tethers, it's not that Tethers to Heaven never form so much as that they are never stabilized. And as for the old Tethers, leaving behind a seneschal to take care of them would violate the new Pax Dei prohibition of angelic interference on Earth, though Soldiers were probably left in charge of many of them. Of course, those soldiers would be long dead by now, as they angels retreated in 745ish AD.

Assuming that the humans didn't choose successors, in the great tradition of holy orders and secret socieities. ("You are now the keeper of the Fire of Gabriel. Guard it well and pass it unstained to the one who is to come.") Or that, as Rob mentioned, the Seneschals aren't keeping watch from the top of the Tether, fulfilling their duty without ever coming to Earth.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Assuming that the humans didn't choose successors, in the great tradition of holy orders and secret socieities. ("You are now the keeper of the Fire of Gabriel. Guard it well and pass it unstained to the one who is to come.")

Yeah, exactly: The human caretakers have left a succession to take care of Tethers over the centuries, though the tricky thing is that plenty of them could well be guarding locations that lost their Tether status (or have since switched to other Words) long ago.

Or that, as Rob mentioned, the Seneschals aren't keeping watch from the top of the Tether, fulfilling their duty without ever coming to Earth.

Ah, I didn't even catch that side of it; I wasn't aware seneschals could still technically perform their duties from Heaven. Good call. This would be invisible from the PCs' perspective, but it does help give Heaven an "out" from necessarily just screwing over its seneschals.

[Phoenix42]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Assuming that the humans didn't choose successors, in the great tradition of holy orders and secret socieities. ("You are now the keeper of the Fire of Gabriel. Guard it well and pass it unstained to the one who is to come.") Or that, as Rob mentioned, the Seneschals aren't keeping watch from the top of the Tether, fulfilling their duty without ever coming to Earth.

Of course, this could be made to work for the whole "tragedy" aspect I mentioned, since you were going to go at it from a mortal point of view (and while there are plenty of reasons for mortals not to like the angels, a world without them, facing demons alone, is just pretty much awful).

Imagine half a dozen secret societies of angelic soldiers still trying to "fight the good fight" without any access to their former superiors, and what's more, without any of them having seen an angel in over a thousand years... They would be outnumbered and pretty much doomed, but they would fight anyway, hoping that one day, Heaven would return. That, in my mind, is really quite a sad story, but it allows for true faith to return to In Nomine's heavenly soldiers, who otherwise at least know that everything is true. It could also make for an interesting character background, coming from one of the bloodlines that are sworn to protect [please insert angelic stuff here], but having foresworn the "old phonies" because there was clearly nothing to it [or is there...? boom boom booooommm]. I must say I really like this setting you're devising, it has so many great possibilities for tragedy, and indeed misplaced heroism, while at the same time being gritty pragmatic style.

[Jason]

Thanks again to all for the tips so far.

I figure I will refer back to this thread as a reference later, so I hope I can be forgiven for posting a reminder to myself (and perhaps a tip for anyone else who decides to do a similar setting): In a setting without angels, Vapula's dissonance condition loses a lot of its sting. However, it shouldn't be dissonant to allow their technology to fall into mortal hands, as part of their purpose is "leaking" harmful tech.

I'll have to brainstorm something appropriate, but I wonder whether the dissonance condition should indeed look more like Jean's. I prefer not to have a dissonance condition that specifies some kind of behavior that must be carried out regularly, like Kobal's, Nybbas's, or Haagenti's ... really not a fan of those, as they can easily either derail what the PCs are working on or just be explained away in the background rather than used as a source of ongoing concern or conflict.

[Rocket Man]

I could see Vapula's condition being left as is, since it only applies to keeping your special infernal artifacts out of human* hands. (As much as they want humans to become tech-dependent, Vappy's demons are too selfish _not_ to keep the best stuff for themselves.) By all means, spread gadgets and untimely developments like a cancer ... but if you let the proprietary stuff get loose, there's gonna be Hell to pay.

*--Yes, and heavenly hands, in the core rules. I'm just going by the assumptions of the setting.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

I could see Vapula's condition being left as is, since it only applies to keeping your special infernal artifacts out of human* hands. (As much as they want humans to become tech-dependent, Vappy's demons are too selfish _not_ to keep the best stuff for themselves.) By all means, spread gadgets and untimely developments like a cancer ... but if you let the proprietary stuff get loose, there's gonna be Hell to pay.

*--Yes, and heavenly hands, in the core rules. I'm just going by the assumptions of the setting.

Oh, good distinction. Should have thought of that.