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Old 11-13-2019, 04:39 AM   #1
Izzy_B
 
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Default revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

The Light Howitzer seems to me to occupy a much needed place in the order of battle that the LAD does not fit. This of course has been debated before and I'm not interested in bringing that up again.

We now have an updated ruleset for Iron Mountain and courtesy of Battlefields, actual counters. However looking again at Iron Mountain in Ogrezine II, especially at the Classic style counter, a question occurs to me: can the light howitzer be moved and if so how easily?

The classic counter illustration shows the sort of gun we are probably familiar with as one that can be towed. The rules in Ogrezine II however dont address this. No need to in the Iron Mountain scenario after all.

We know its firepower and range, its defense value and that it is M0 and costs 1AU. In Iron Mountain it is worth 6VP. Though the counter was included as a courtesy in Battlefields, the most recent Battlefields rulebook makes no mention of the Light Howitzer at all.

In this thread I'd like to exchange ideas on the following:

Can it be towed?
If so what kind of unit is required to do so? Regular truck, some sort of tank or larger?
Finally since this is a crew served weapon, what sort of infantry is required in order to get it ready to move and how long does that take?

My own thought based on the classic counter is that even a 1/1 could hook this up to any truck within a turn and a truck could pull it. This idea was met with a bit of skepticism on the Ogre Discord. I'd like to hear y'all's views and if possible it would be marvelous if Drew or Steve could rule on it.
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

Rules as written [as per 15.04.8, Vulcans Towing Vehicles] it can't be towed because it's M0...

...but Ogre Minis 2nd edition helpfully describes how full-size Howitzers are constructed:
Quote:
[A Howitzer is a] heavy missile cannon, towed to a chosen site and mounted.
Which in turn gives canon justification for Howitzers in some form or fashion being able to be dragged behind a unit. Given that Vulcans are Combine only and Howitzers vastly outnumber Cybertanks, that means something lighter has to have moved them into position, so as a scenario gimmick I think Light Howitzers specifically mounted to a towable chassis could be interesting.

This is what I put on the Discord [and am posting here at Izzy's invitation], before double-checking that bit in the Minis 2nd book:
Quote:
There are rules for towing, but it's a special Vulcan task. That said, it should be able to be adapted to "units explicitly designed to be towed" without too much tooth-gnashing. I'm tempted to follow the LAD's lead...declare [the LHWZ] it as Size 3 (because the stats aren't that far off from a Howitzer to warrant the full "halve as many times as necessary (Super to Light: halve twice) and round" other units get), Size 2 when packed, and otherwise follows similar procedures.

- Because it is towed instead of palletized, it can be disconnected from the hitch and start unpacking in the same turn.
- Unpacking takes 1 full turn; it must start the turn in the hex it's setting up in.
- Diagnostics / calibration takes 1 full turn.
- It may then act normally.
- (Edit: This is likely unrealistic, but is done for rules consistency with the 'LAD on a pallet on the ground' setup procedure)

- Packing a LHWZ is done by the human crew assigned to it, and takes 1 full turn.
- Hitching a packed LHWZ to an Armor Unit is done by the human crew, and takes 1 full turn for both units [the unit must already be in the hex]. There is not a good real-world justification for this, it is for rules consistency with other loading/unloading rules and the Vulcan's "attach tow hitch" task.

LHWZ may be towed by an Armor Unit at the following rates:
-- Size 1 units at -3MP
-- Size 2 units at -2MP
-- Size 3 or Size 4 units at -1MP
-- Size 5+ units at no penalty
-- Hover-class units [HT, GEV-family] have this penalty applied to both movement phases.
-- A unit that is reduced to 0MP in this fashion cannot tow a LHWZ.
-- Hover-class units whose 2nd-phase movement is reduced to 0MP cannot move during the 2nd phase.
The movement rates table is an inversion of the pattern for the Vulcan towing table, since this is for the towed unit instead of the towing one. I used the unpacked Size of 3 based on the fact that the weight wouldn't change by folding up the support legs, but it could easily enough be converted to use the Packed size of 2 by shifting all Sizes on the table down one step: 1 is -2MP, 2 or 3 is -1MP, 4+ is no penalty.
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:18 PM   #3
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Default Re: revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

Per Izzy_B's request, I am also moving my replies to the Discord to this thread...

My First thoughts....

Quote:
Ok, so my unsolicited take on the light howitzer issue. This is not meant as criticism, just thinking it through(game mechanics, logic, lore). I don’t think they are going to be towable, especially not quickly. At 4 minutes a turn and 1500m per hex I don’t think it works. If the light howitzer is indeed a size 4(or even 3, I know i’m mixing between Hex and Miniatures rules), it is a large, complicated, emplaced weapon system, nothing like a 105mm/155mm howitzer. This is also how they are illustrated. The LAD’s are somewhat portable but are very small(size 1), semi-autonomous and still require Engineers and several turns. If you need a quickly portable piece of equipment, i’m not sure this is it. Not sure what to suggest beyond creating something new(heavy lad, semi automated heavy mortar, Missle/Rocket system, dunno). I’m sure others will chime in, possibly with a better take. Either way, can’t wait to see what you come up with.
It is possible that a Vulcan Heavy Drone may be able to make off with one. Not sure if it would be able to lift something that big, rules say it can pick up a pallet. Maybe...
Then my revision after more thought...

Quote:
Ok, this is my revised take on the Light Howitzer issue after some reading of the original article (I have a copy of the original Ogre Book) and some real world research as well as getting a feel for what I think is the reasoning behind some of the rules. First, the Vulcan Heavy Drone was just a suggestion to allow something normally large and not easily or quickly movable to be moved. Forget I mentioned it, was just something that popped into my head. Secondly, as there is no other info on the stats for the LH in the scenario and the LH in Miniatures doesn't match spec wise, I'll chuck that. So I'm left with a small limited range and firepower field piece. I think a modern corollary would be the current issue M777 155mm towed howitzer, which, I found out through researching it yesterday, can be displaced or emplaced in a manner of 3-4 minutes. Even watched a video. So an upgraded Ogreverse one could exist for specialized situations(w/upgraded munitions and whatnot). So in game turns it could indeed be loaded in one turn or unloaded/set up in one turn. The caveats are as follows, it is a towed gun..that's it, no storage, crew compartment...nothing. It will need a crew and a support vehicle with it all all times to function(ammunition, crew support, etc). The crew would be vulnerable(no battlesuits), so maybe if the support vehicle is destroyed, so are they and the gun is useless. I can only get around a wheeled or tracked vehicle behind the tow vehicle, a GEV/Hover truck makes no sense to me in in that function, unless we assume the hover truck has some sort of lifting system to allowing it to unload and load it by itself. This will differ from the LAD in that the LAD is a very light, self contained weapon system that , once deployed, needs no crews or supplies unless it needs to be repositioned. The LH is heavier and possibly faster deployed but its weakness is its support vehicle/crew.
This is all speculation as this is not a Canon (pun) vehicle but I think it is sensible and makes it distinct from the main heavy artillery(Howitzers) and the specialized light artillery(LADs). It has strengths and weaknesses. It is also somewhat grounded in reality(...He says talking overly seriously about a game with giant self aware tanks....)
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Old 11-14-2019, 06:32 AM   #4
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Default Re: revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

Are TheAmishStig and Oldgamer72 both assuming the crew goes with the weapon and an dedicated infantry unit isn't required?
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:55 PM   #5
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Default Re: revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy_B View Post
Are TheAmishStig and Oldgamer72 both assuming the crew goes with the weapon and an dedicated infantry unit isn't required?
I'm not sure what the distinction is you are making with that question. Are you asking about whether a new INF type is needed to crew the LHWZ, or are you asking if the cost of the LHWZ includes the cost of the crew, or something else?
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Old 11-14-2019, 04:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

I think he's asking if there needs to be a squad of infantry with it and I would say no, it has dedicated crew. I believe, because it's a towed artillery piece(tube and carriage only) there has to be a dedicated support vehicle to transport the crew, ammunition and equipment for the piece. If the support vehicle gets destroyed, the crew and ammo is assumed lost and the artillery piece is rendered useless. So while it can be loaded in one turn and unloaded/setup in one turn, it has to have its support vehicle with it in the same hex to fire. Other trucks(or whatever can tow it, and save VP if necessary) but if the support vehicle is destroyed or not in the same hex it cannot fire. This offsets its rapid deployability and mid level strength and range. It also makes it more real world in the way it operates.

It differs from the howitzer in that the howitzer is very large and emplaced. While it is towed or transported in some fashion to its emplacement, the set up time/take down is far outside of the scope of the game. The LAD doesn't need a crew to setup or operate(only to breakdown or move) and has self contained ammunition but this is offset by its relative weakness and the time it takes to move. The LH would fill a niche between the two without being overpowered or "breaking" the game.

Last edited by Oldgamer72; 11-14-2019 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 11-14-2019, 04:37 PM   #7
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Default Re: revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy_B View Post
Are TheAmishStig and Oldgamer72 both assuming the crew goes with the weapon and an dedicated infantry unit isn't required?
Correct, I'm assuming the "crew" (as well as the ammo supply and everything else) is all built into the counter, just as it is for any other Armor Unit.

I only brought them up to note that I don't think Combat Engineers should be necessary to tear one down; a crew trained to operate a towable artillery piece would logically also be trained to deploy / undeploy such a weapons system.

Edited to add: I had a thought. Do you guys think such a thing should be more vulnerable when stowed (similar to how an LAD is D1, but an LAD Pallet is D0), either because its ECM is non-functional or because the fold/unfold bits are a weak point?
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:26 AM   #8
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Default Re: revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldgamer72 View Post
I think he's asking if there needs to be a squad of infantry with it and I would say no, it has dedicated crew. I believe, because it's a towed artillery piece(tube and carriage only) there has to be a dedicated support vehicle to transport the crew, ammunition and equipment for the piece.
So no dedicated INF, but still two units involved: the LHWZ and the truck. I assume the truck can leave, but the LHWZ becomes inoperative. Relying on the support truck does add a complication layer because it's likely going to be an easier target. I'd be inclined to destroy the truck and not care about the LHZW. In order to offset that, the truck has to be at least the same D value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
Correct, I'm assuming the "crew" (as well as the ammo supply and everything else) is all built into the counter, just as it is for any other Armor Unit.
So that's distinctly different from above. I would prefer this model from a KISS perspective, but at that point, why bother with the unit at all? What does it provide that a LAD does not?

Quote:
I only brought them up to note that I don't think Combat Engineers should be necessary to tear one down; a crew trained to operate a towable artillery piece would logically also be trained to deploy / undeploy such a weapons system.
Correct, but there needs to be a way to represent the fact it's a "dead" unit without people to run it. The fact it's a towable mobile unit complicates this. I think part of the issue is it really can't be towed by "anything"; it should really be only purpose-built support trucks. For example, if a HVY tows one, where do the support crew and ammo go?

Quote:
Edited to add: I had a thought. Do you guys think such a thing should be more vulnerable when stowed (similar to how an LAD is D1, but an LAD Pallet is D0), either because its ECM is non-functional or because the fold/unfold bits are a weak point?
I actually don't think the D value should be any different because it doesn't have a concept of being "off." It's also not palletized, you are just folding the supports, so it's functionally the same unit regardless.
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Old 11-15-2019, 01:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

The only reason I can see to use this unit is to permit multiple guns to be set up in various places and then crew/supply them with a smaller number of trucks/crews to provide cover over a larger area when you don't know exactly where an attack may come from. These LHs will be pretty cheap (and thus semi-expendable), and could therefore be setup en masse if given a sufficient screen (e.g., a couple hexes of difficult terrain or mountains - if they can fire over them) for lower cost and then only spend on a handful of crews who could deploy to whichever LHs are needed to repel attackers. A gun like this is probably only 1-2VP, with the crew & supply truck being the majority of the cost. You could even make said truck a modified LT (or even HVY!) for improved survivability, given how critical the crew is compared to the gun itself.

The other place for a weapon like this is going to be a archaic/poor country that doesn't have modern forces, or perhaps an abandoned/rear-echelon base that never expected to see combat. So it's probably going to be scenarios-specific no matter where it ends up, but I'm sure someone's going to come up with a creative use for it! :)
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: revisiting the question of the Light Howitzer

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
So that's distinctly different from above. I would prefer this model from a KISS perspective, but at that point, why bother with the unit at all? What does it provide that a LAD does not?
His and mine should be treated as two different proposals for the same unit, rather than an 'on the same page' collaboration. As to value / purpose...it really doesn't have a good purity of purpose, I'm enjoying it as a thought experiment. It's either a LAD that's easier to relocate, or a MHWZ that's harder to relocate...an awkward generalist sandwiched between a pair of specialists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Correct, but there needs to be a way to represent the fact it's a "dead" unit without people to run it.
X results, my friend. For sake of simplicity it should be that either the crew is a separate counter and can be killed separately, or it's baked into the counter and a mission kill is a mission kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
The fact it's a towable mobile unit complicates this. I think part of the issue is it really can't be towed by "anything"; it should really be only purpose-built support trucks. For example, if a HVY tows one, where do the support crew and ammo go?
That's something that came up on Discord...my idea for MP penalties is really no-win, either it gets "beyond the scope of Ogre" granular with different penalties for different classes of vehicle...since 1MP for a truck pulling one doesn't really make sense (Size 1 @ basis of 3 = -3), but neither does 3/2 for a GEV pulling one (Size 2 @ basis of 2 = -1).

----------------------

Either way, it's a fruitful conversation because you've brought up a third possibility. By baking the truck into the counter, it becomes a LMHWZ (QRS, TUV...these acronyms are getting out of hand) and could be reduced down to [a complete hip shot...and I'm using the Iron Mountain version of the gun, since that's the one with the towable silhouette]:

3/5 D1 M4, Wheeled

with the additional restriction that it can't move and fire on the same turn to represent the "hitch / unfold legs / etc". That'd put it in the 3-6VP range, depending on how vicious the 'must sit still to fire' penalty ends up being.

It wouldn't be as fun of a scenario gimmick as the "not enough to go around" angle OldGamer is working...and if one of them doesn't cook up something around that idea for Ogrezine III I will because it's clever and should not be discarded...but could possibly fill the growing ranks of "Not quite Archaic but still Obsolete" units on my pile.
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