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Old 11-08-2019, 11:16 AM   #11
Anthony
 
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

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Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
Isn't it just supposed to be a long-range taser? Therefore, it's meant to deliver an incapacitating charge, with the burns being an unavoidable side-effect.
I think it's supposed to be that, but in general the point of an incapacitating weapon is to disable without killing. If we assume the shock is localized it doesn't actually disable, so it fails. If the shock is non-localized, it can disable, but between the amount of normal damage it does and the chance of heart attack, it's not very good at doing so without killing.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:43 AM   #12
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I think it's supposed to be that, but in general the point of an incapacitating weapon is to disable without killing.
Yeah, that might be right. If you compare with the actual taser-like weapons on UTp164, they have the full rules on incapacitating that the stingrays don't mention.

OTOH, UT doesn't otherwise have a ranged electroshock weapon, does it? The stun wand and zap glove are both melee.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

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Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
Yeah, that might be right. If you compare with the actual taser-like weapons on UTp164, they have the full rules on incapacitating that the stingrays don't mention.

OTOH, UT doesn't otherwise have a ranged electroshock weapon, does it? The stun wand and zap glove are both melee.
What do you think an electrolaser is?

The Stingray suffers from translation problems. The oriignal 3e version was more useful due to different Electricity rules.
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Old 11-08-2019, 02:16 PM   #14
hal
 
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
What do you think an electrolaser is?

The Stingray suffers from translation problems. The oriignal 3e version was more useful due to different Electricity rules.
After reading Fred's comment and referring back to the original source material for the Stingray, it would seem that the original Stingray was intended to actively cause heart attacks with failed HT saving rolls and getting a crit failure. ANY armor worn between the impact site and the target would modify this HT saving roll at a rate of +1 HT per 5 DR. That also meant that regardless of what armor you were wearing, a critical failure would still result in a heart attack.

My question now is why the half damage value assigned to the capacitor bullet, and why it in addition, suffers an armor divisor of (.25)? That makes the round do 1/8th normal damage overall relative to standard ammunition. Frangible rounds only have an armor divisor of (.5) - and they are meant to disintegrate upon impact (see pg 167 of High Tech). Is a capacitor that much worse than Frangible rounds?

What is even more ironic is that the new publication of GURPS HIGH TECH ELECTRICITY AND ELECTRONICS classifies certain types of electrical damage by what causes the damage. Capacitors are treated as non-lethal damage!

<shrug>

If I were to house rule this?

Armor Divisor changes to (.5). If copper sheathed, maybe (.75)
Damage type is non-lethal for non-vitals hits to the torso.
Damage type is Lethal for vitals hit to the torso.

Still not too happy with this, but will mull it over some more.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
What do you think an electrolaser is?

The Stingray suffers from translation problems. The oriignal 3e version was more useful due to different Electricity rules.
Oh yeah, there is that.

However, it fills a different tactical role than a bullet payload. Would two simultaneous stingray hits cause electromuscular disruption? Could you have a hypothetical stingray round that splits in two to give the required separation? Or that carries outrigger electrodes?
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Old 11-09-2019, 11:36 AM   #16
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
But there is no chance of a heart attack because it is localized damage.
I still allow Unconsciousness and Heart Attack from vital and brain hits from Localized Electrical attacks.



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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I always thought it was meant for killing computers at range. This comic strip may have influenced that.
Since even Localized Electrical attacks cause Surge, it's also great against cybernetic/electronic foes.
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Old 11-09-2019, 01:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

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Since even Localized Electrical attacks cause Surge, it's also great against cybernetic/electronic foes.
This feature is what caused me to look at it more closely actually.

The more I look into this issue of why are the stats of the 10mm stingray round as they are, the more I grow dissatisfied with the rules structure and concepts.

What is the density of the capacitor relative to lead? This is needed to determine what the "bullet" weight of the capacitor will be if it is to mimic the 10mm bullet in shape and volume and such. The mass of the bullet will determine its actual weight, and thus, its damage upon impact.

Frangible rounds have an armor divisor of (.5) and they're designed to disintegrate upon impact (right down to its component parts being smaller bb like material or even clay like material if GURPS HIGH TECH is to be believed).

All told? Halving the damage because the bullet mass is halved does not compute. For example, a 10mm 150 grain bullet travelling at 1250 feet per second will result in 3d6-1 damage. Halving the bullet mass to 75 grains, will result in 2d6+0 damage (all other things kept the same). The same powder used to propel the 150 grain bullet will cause the lighter weight bullet to travel faster, so all things won't be the same.

Best as I can research thus far?

Frangible rounds introduced in GURPS HIGH TECH, have an armor divisor of (.5). The capacitor rounds are worse than frangible rounds that are designed to fragment upon impact and lose their penetrative powers against even thick plate glass or aluminum. Why would the capacitor based bullet be any less sturdy than rounds designed to fragment?

Armor piercing rounds have their damage halved - but that would not make sense for the armor divisor aspect that is treated as (.25)

If capacitors have the same density as energy cells - then this would be my train of thought:

75 grains = 75 grains/7000 grains/lbs or 0.011 lbs.

The closest thing to this weight in GURPS ULTRATECH for power cells is 2xA cells (which weighs in as .01 lbs for two).

Are two A cells sufficient to cause that kind of a "Surge"? If the answer is yes, then wow. If the answer is no, then - per the internal logic of GURPS ULTRATECH for 4e, the Stingray rounds should not be a viable option in any campaign unless it is strictly cinematic where the GM doesn't care about internal logic/consistency.

Much as I hate to say this, unless there are better answers than what I have come up with thus far (and I'm hoping someone will point out the flaws in my logic!!!), I'd have to disallow this for my current "in the year 2049" cyberpunk campaign.
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Old 11-09-2019, 04:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
What is the density of the capacitor relative to lead?
Stingray rounds should be compared to explosive or chemical class munitions, not bullets. Of course. 10mm HEMP do 8d(5) and cost less than stingray rounds.

I think stingray rounds in previous editions were piezoelectric, though that would realistically mean their electric damage would be somewhat linked to their kinetic damage.
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Old 11-09-2019, 05:03 PM   #19
hal
 
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Stingray rounds should be compared to explosive or chemical class munitions, not bullets. Of course. 10mm HEMP do 8d(5) and cost less than stingray rounds.

I think stingray rounds in previous editions were piezoelectric, though that would realistically mean their electric damage would be somewhat linked to their kinetic damage.
Which is fine - but then I shouldn't be using the original bullet stats for the stingray rounds. To my mind, stingray bullets do 1/8th of their original bullet stats largely due to the x4 value of armor coupled with the half damage value for their original stats.

Granted, the original stats on the 10mm stingray had them doing only 1d6-3, the follow up attack value wasn't dependent upon bypassing armor, but instead, gave the victim of such an attack a HT saving roll based on a bonus for every 5 DR the victim was wearing at the time.

This implies that the electrical attack went THROUGH the armor. The next thing to question now, is how well the rules for 10mm HEMP stack up.

;)
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Old 11-09-2019, 06:54 PM   #20
Anthony
 
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Default Re: 10mm stingray round - how does it work?

Realistically, stingray rounds, as described, are nonsense; an electric shock requires a completed circuit, which means either two contact points (which they don't have) or a large static charge on the bullet (which will require a specially constructed gun and be generally pretty hazardous for the user), and if you want to just disrupt electronics, EMP rounds (UT157) are both more effective and more realistic.

A binary bullet that splits and hits two points probably isn't less realistic than tangler rounds, and might actually use similar tech, since if it attached itself to the target it could have a continuous effect for multiple turns, similar to a stun wand.
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