Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-29-2006, 10:29 PM   #21
Gavynn
 
Gavynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Ah, I was looking for language talent to be listed as an example talent under "Talents" but it is not. It is listed as its own advantage. I see. I think that would make sense to add to the template. I am also looking at regeneration and I think that the slow regeneration might work. Rapid healing could be bought by humans, and I don't want a fast healing human to be as good as an elf - so this keeps the elves a cut above humanity. Perhaps regular regeneration would be available to select individual elves who do things like heal from knife wounds over night - a very select few. I think this would come with a zero point feature that normally wounds do not scar and so forth, to keep them looking fresh. No regrowth though. Nothing leads me to believe elves can regrow lost limbs.
__________________
Heath Robinson
-----
I created a jumbo-sized HeroQuest board from foam and I also built a case for a 55 inch TV to display animated RPG maps.
Gavynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2006, 10:39 PM   #22
Kelly Pedersen
 
Kelly Pedersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
Nothing leads me to believe elves can regrow lost limbs.
In fact, there's at least one example of an elf definitively not regrowing a lost body part: Maehdros, Feanor's oldest son, had his right hand cut off, and the Sil says he learned to be more deadly with his left hand than he was with his right, which would hardly have been nessecary if elves could regrow.
Kelly Pedersen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2006, 10:47 PM   #23
Kelly Pedersen
 
Kelly Pedersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
-perhaps elves should get unkillable 3, with the limitation that they must reform in mandos caves ? otoh, its a lot of point to basically said that they are out of the game if dead ...
Unkillable is probably not nessecary. Re-embodiment is strictly at the will of the Valar, so elven ressurection would be a special effect controlled by the GM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
(feanor being the only one who traded it for spirit form and faded away )
Er, where are you getting this from? The Silmarillion is pretty clear that Feanor's spirit went to the Halls of Mandos, just like all the other elves whose bodies died. It's just that Feanor has not yet been re-embodied, and it's rather unlikely to happen anytime soon, either, given all the stuff he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
-tolkien world is definitively a low 'mundane magic' world. is there a reason for the racial magery ?
Actually, I wouldn't say that Middle Earth is particularly "low magic". It's just that the magic is very "transparent" - that is, it just seems to fit naturally into the world, and one doesn't usually see a lot of chanting and messing about with rituals to make it happen. But when you think about it, there's a lot of magic stuff kicking around. Heck, pretty much the entire Fellowship had at least something that would probably count as a magic item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
-they are not really unaging, they just will themselves to be it... perhaps a limitation on unaging (require a will roll, yearly) ?
Got a reference for this? As far as I know, elves don't have to "will" themselves to be unaging at all - that's their default state. In fact, it seems that it's men that are special, in that they can die - that's the Gift of Iluvatar at work. If men didn't have that, they'd presumably be the same way elves are.
Kelly Pedersen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2006, 01:25 AM   #24
TheQuestionMan
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Nice Topic and great Thread.


Thanks

QM
__________________
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
TheQuestionMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2006, 03:05 AM   #25
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Unkillable is probably not nessecary. Re-embodiment is strictly at the will of the Valar, so elven ressurection would be a special effect controlled by the GM.
The gm always control where you re-embody, just declare the hall of mandos a no-regen zone ...
But i agree. its, in almost any game involving tolkien world, a special effect.
They are unkillable, but since they don't return to play. Otoh, see glorfindel ... At first, it was 2 people with an unfortunate name collision, but it seems there is some fragment of note by tolkien that seems to mean that he intended to have them being the same elf, reembodied and back in ME for some reason ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by luthien death in silm
But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass.
But Lúthien came to the halls of Mandos, where are the appointed places of the Eldalië, beyond the mansions of the West upon the confines of the world. There those that wait sit in the shadow of their thought. But her beauty was more than their beauty, and her sorrow deeper than their sorrows; and she knelt before Mandos and sang to him.
Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, land subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song.
This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Er, where are you getting this from? The Silmarillion is pretty clear that Feanor's spirit went to the Halls of Mandos, just like all the other elves whose bodies died. It's just that Feanor has not yet been re-embodied, and it's rather unlikely to happen anytime soon, either, given all the stuff he did.
Quote:
Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.
You are right, and i am, as usual, wrong. i could have sworn i remenbered 'passed beyond the hall of mandos' memory, memory... i should check my books before posting anything ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Actually, I wouldn't say that Middle Earth is particularly "low magic". It's just that the magic is very "transparent" - that is, it just seems to fit naturally into the world, and one doesn't usually see a lot of chanting and messing about with rituals to make it happen. But when you think about it, there's a lot of magic stuff kicking around. Heck, pretty much the entire Fellowship had at least something that would probably count as a magic item.
No question that ME is a magical world. By low mundane magic, i mean it is not a world with spellcaster and people using magic in the everyday life, as technomancer or the forgotten realms ... people in ME don't routinely fireball their ennemy, they don't, usually, bring their wounded to the cleric for a drop of major healing potion ... magic is there, it is very important, but outside of elves community, it is seldom seen, and even inside, you can count wandering spellcaster on one hand. That is why i was suggering craft magic, medium and healing power instead of the magery+spells way.
And i think the council of elrond is proof enough that if elrond, erestor, glorfindel and the other old and wise elves cannot identify at a glance the most potent magic item left in ME, they don't have mage sight ... So, if no spellcasting and no mage-sight, why magery ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Got a reference for this? As far as I know, elves don't have to "will" themselves to be unaging at all - that's their default state. In fact, it seems that it's men that are special, in that they can die - that's the Gift of Iluvatar at work. If men didn't have that, they'd presumably be the same way elves are.
Men gift is total death. they die, their spirit goes somewhere unknow, perhaps to fade, perhaps to return, no one know. (a couple of exception, but always linked to the silmarils power).
Elves whose physical body die have their spirit summoned to mandos hall, to receive a new body at a later date.
But the elves body can grew old
Quote:
As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said: ‘All is now ready.’
and in fact, the strenght of the elven spirit sublimate their material body, so that their body is impervious to time. but if the spirit fail, or grew sad and weary, so does the body.
Quote:
Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time.
Quote:
Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol
And of course, there is the curse of Namo
Quote:
For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
To me, but i could be wrong, it seems to mean that the state of the elves bodies, at last in middle-earth, is linked to their state of mind . if they grow weary, so does their body. If they despair, their body winter. For their body is like the one of men (aging), except for the fire of their spirit. thats how i understand it, anyway.

celjabba
Celjabba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2006, 07:41 AM   #26
NineDaysDead
Banned
 
NineDaysDead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
I am also looking at regeneration and I think that the slow regeneration might work. Rapid healing could be bought by humans, and I don't want a fast healing human to be as good as an elf - so this keeps the elves a cut above humanity.
If you want the default elf template to be better than the best human you must give them Regeneration: Slow, since even a normal human can have Very Rapid Healing which will let them heal 2 HP a day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
Perhaps regular regeneration would be available to select individual elves who do things like heal from knife wounds over night - a very select few.
I think it was only one badass first age elf. Having regular regeneration is probably the same a human having a stat at 20.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
I think this would come with a zero point feature that normally wounds do not scar and so forth, to keep them looking fresh.
That might be a perk: Doesn’t Scar [1]. It would make you immune to the effects of any non-crushing attack on a 12-13 on the Critical Head Blow Table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
No regrowth though. Nothing leads me to believe elves can regrow lost limbs.
Right, Maehdros means no Regrowth. Did anyone suggest this?
NineDaysDead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2006, 11:22 AM   #27
Kelly Pedersen
 
Kelly Pedersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
The gm always control where you re-embody, just declare the hall of mandos a no-regen zone ...
Frankly, this is a bit silly. Most of the point of Unkillable is that you can come back from the dead in a reasonable timeframe. If I took Unkillable 3, and then the GM told me that, by default, my spirit, after death, went to a "no resurrection" zone that I could only get out of on the favor of the gods, I'd be just a bit irritated. Basically, the elven resurrection is more or less like the average fantasy return-from-the-dead; you die, but your spirit goes to a distinct location, where the favor of the divine rulers of the world can return it. Since you can't do it on your own power, and it's hardly guaranteed, it doesn't rate Unkillable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
And i think the council of elrond is proof enough that if elrond, erestor, glorfindel and the other old and wise elves cannot identify at a glance the most potent magic item left in ME, they don't have mage sight ... So, if no spellcasting and no mage-sight, why magery ?
Er, who says they couldn't? Note that the mage sense aspect of Magery only tells you that "Yup, this thing's magical", not the strength or purpose of that magic, unless you roll a critical success.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
Elves whose physical body die have their spirit summoned to mandos hall, to receive a new body at a later date.
But the elves body can grew old

Quote:
As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said: ‘All is now ready.’
Unfortunately, Cirdan is pretty much the only example of this sort of thing. Galadriel was of a similar age to Cirdan, and Celeborn may well have been as well, and neither of them had any particular signs of age. Cirdan was probably more weathered by all that he had gone through (his lands got hit pretty hard, a couple of times, during the First Age), than simple age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
and in fact, the strenght of the elven spirit sublimate their material body, so that their body is impervious to time. but if the spirit fail, or grew sad and weary, so does the body.

Quote:
Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time.
Actually, I read that as meaning that elven bodies eventually become more frail and ethereal; this was Tolkien's way of explaining why "modern" elves - that is, those that were seen in our world - were often very ethereal and wispy, rather than the big, solid, physically tough specimens of the First Age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
And of course, there is the curse of Namo

Quote:
For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
Remember, the Doom of Mandos was more along the lines of a prophecy than a curse. Mandos, or even all the Valar working together, had neither the power nor the right to alter the nature of the elves. Pretty much everything covered in the Prophecy of the North is stuff that would have happened to the Noldor anyway, even if Mandos hadn't told them.
In any case, the business of becoming weary of the world and whatnot simply doesn't sound like a limitation on Unaging to me. It's more along the lines of a special effect - some elves, under significant stress, can appear to age, but they never seem to suffer lost attributes or anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
For their body is like the one of men (aging), except for the fire of their spirit. thats how i understand it, anyway.
I'm reasonably sure that Tolkien intended aging , in the sense of the physical degeneration of the body, to be the aberration, caused by the Gift of Iluvatar. Several times, when talking about how Men aged, he referred to the effects of the Gift. For example, when talking about the death of Beor the Old:

Quote:
"And when he lay dead, of no wound or grief, but stricken by age, the Eldar saw for the first time the swift waning of the life of Men, and the death of weariness which they knew not in themselves..."
Kelly Pedersen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2006, 11:32 AM   #28
quarkstomper
 
quarkstomper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Enchanted Land-O-Cheese
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

My understanding, and I don't have the texts in front of me to verify so I may be mistaken, is that Tolkien intended to differentiate between physical signs of the passage of time and physical degeneration. An elf's hair might turn from gold to silver; his face might become lined; his hands might become calloused with his labours; but he would still remain healthy. He would not become afflicted with things like arthritis or osteoperosis or Alzheimer's.

In GURPS terms, he would gain a 0-Point Feature, Venerable Appearance, but would not lose HT or IQ the way a human would. And even these external signs of aging would occur at a much slower rate than with humans.
quarkstomper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2006, 11:46 AM   #29
NineDaysDead
Banned
 
NineDaysDead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

This website suggests Círdan may be over 10,000 years old at the end of the war of the ring, in GURPS terms that means Elves probably have Unaging (Perhaps with a 0-point feature “Grows old after a really, amazingly, massively long time”), simply because the alternate is going to be 8+ levels of Extended Lifespan [16+] which would cost more than Unaging [15].
NineDaysDead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2006, 12:34 PM   #30
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Frankly, this is a bit silly. Most of the point of Unkillable is that you can come back from the dead in a reasonable timeframe. If I took Unkillable 3, and then the GM told me that, by default, my spirit, after death, went to a "no resurrection" zone that I could only get out of on the favor of the gods, I'd be just a bit irritated. Basically, the elven resurrection is more or less like the average fantasy return-from-the-dead; you die, but your spirit goes to a distinct location, where the favor of the divine rulers of the world can return it. Since you can't do it on your own power, and it's hardly guaranteed, it doesn't rate Unkillable.
yes , it is silly. And i did say that i believe it should be written as a special effect -Upon physical death, go to the hall of mandos - o pts.
But they don't die fully, and in theory, it should mean unkillable. And if the 2 glorfindel are one, it stop being a special effect-in theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Er, who says they couldn't? Note that the mage sense aspect of Magery only tells you that "Yup, this thing's magical", not the strength or purpose of that magic, unless you roll a critical success.
They decided it was a magic ring, a ring of power, the one ring by a process of deduction and logical steps, not by any mage sight. To almost quote one of them, "okay, we have seen a ring . so what."
And i don't believe sauron put ward on it, he certainly didn't expect to loose it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Unfortunately, Cirdan is pretty much the only example of this sort of thing.
I seem to remenber a couple of other, in "lost tales".
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarkstomper
My understanding, and I don't have the texts in front of me to verify so I may be mistaken, is that Tolkien intended to differentiate between physical signs of the passage of time and physical degeneration. An elf's hair might turn from gold to silver; his face might become lined; his hands might become calloused with his labours; but he would still remain healthy. He would not become afflicted with things like arthritis or osteoperosis or Alzheimer's..
I agree. They don't make aging rolls, but they do change physically, after a long time or when they 'grew weary'.
So, they are unaging, but with a small limitation/special effect. Pure unaging, you don't change, by the book. See, for example, methos in highlander. 5000+ years, look like a young man.
we can argue this for long, as we seems to have 2 different, both valid, interpretation in each case.
You say physical dying in ME is death, with afterlife in Valinor.
I say physical dying in ME is body death, spirit free.
You say unaging is no aging roll, noxious physical effect
I say unaging is no change due to the passage of time, full stop.
2 (well 4) point of view, both valid, i guess... to quote Ambassador kosh, 'Understanding is a 3 edged sword. your side, my side, and kromm word.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
I'm reasonably sure that Tolkien intended aging , in the sense of the physical degeneration of the body, to be the aberration, caused by the Gift of Iluvatar. Several times, when talking about how Men aged, he referred to the effects of the Gift. For example, when talking about the death of Beor the Old:
This, however, i disagree. The gift of men is clearly said to be full death and short life. Pain and suffering, disease and aging are means and ways, not the gift or his effect. And i wouldn't call the gift an aberration.
Besides, after the prophecy know as the curse of mandos, elves suffered from pain, suffering and weariness of body and soul, without being in any way associated to man's gift, luthien and descendant excepted.

celjabba
Celjabba is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lotr, racial template

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.