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Old 03-04-2015, 08:48 PM   #1
Nikas_Zekeval
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Peoria, IL
Default Questions before going into the water

My group is doing an offseason duel, and decided to flood the arena.

So a few questions since this is my first time dueling on the water.

The CWC2.5 lists a lifejacket, but doesn't describe it's effect. Any armor value, or simply keeps a crew member from drowning?

On torpedoes:
One, how smart is a prox fuse? Will the torp automatically detonate as soon as it gets within the 1/2" activation range, never allowing a contact hit? Or will it wait till the point of closest approach and only detonate if it starts to slip past a target?

Two, what about ice droppers and floating mines? Will a torp run into the former and go off? Or is it too deep and will drive right under it? What about a prox fused torp? Will a torpedo set off mines, taking them both out?

Three, how do other players handle the fact that torps can't be seen visually more than 4" away? Do targets lacking sonar know they've been locked onto by a homing torp further out? This gets into meta vs character knowledge, since it might have players make radical turns to avoid weapons they can't see yet. Or even know are in the water.
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Old 03-04-2015, 10:22 PM   #2
Parody
 
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Default Re: Questions before going into the water

I didn't search the ADQs, but here's my thoughts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikas_Zekeval View Post
The CWC2.5 lists a lifejacket, but doesn't describe it's effect. Any armor value, or simply keeps a crew member from drowning?
The UACFH has the listing. It has no armor value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikas_Zekeval View Post
One, how smart is a prox fuse?
There is no smartness. Proximity fused torpedoes explode when they get within 1/4" of a target. They never reach the target, and thus do less damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikas_Zekeval View Post
Two, what about ice droppers and floating mines? Will a torp run into the former and go off? Or is it too deep and will drive right under it?
Torpedoes run 1/2" under the water. I'd say they pass under ice dropper ice and floating mines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikas_Zekeval View Post
What about a prox fused torp? Will a torpedo set off mines, taking them both out?
No, because they're not within 1/4" (see above). You could make an argument for proximity fused floating mines perhaps sensing a torpedo and going off, destroying the torpedo. (I'd probably say no for simplicity.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikas_Zekeval View Post
Three, how do other players handle the fact that torps can't be seen visually more than 4" away?
We gave up on this and just treat them like missiles that you can't target until they're within 4".
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:47 PM   #3
owenmp
 
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Default Re: Questions before going into the water

Remember to also consider blue-green lasers, aquabikes, foxers and anti-torpedo launchers in an aquaduel. If your boat has hydrofoils, underbody-mounted turrets will be above the surface of the water, able to add their firepower to normal, above-water weaponry. Also remember waterproofing for weapons.

The Micro Marine Power Plant is in Boat Wars Deluxe Edition but is not in CWC 2.5 or UACFH. It has a low amount of power factors but it can be useful for aquabikes.

I just thought of a new weapon for aquaduels. It would be a grenade that does not explode but creates a large amount of noise underwater. It would be like a beacon mine or limpet beacon except it would be a countermeasure against sound-guided weaponry (torpedoes) instead of radar- or laser-guided weaponry.

Could such a grenade be produced? How effective would it be to divert a torpedo? Perhaps this grenade would have less chance of diverting a torpedo than a foxer.

If several of these grenades were activated at the same time, perhaps they would work like the foam grenade variant by AVRO, with each grenade increasing chance of diverting a torpedo (see link below).

SWAT HQ Salvage Yard - AVRO Rule Interpretations
http://www.seanet.com/~owenmp/avro-2000/rule-inter.html
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Questions before going into the water

Quote:
Originally Posted by owenmp View Post
...

I just thought of a new weapon for aquaduels. It would be a grenade that does not explode but creates a large amount of noise underwater. It would be like a beacon mine or limpet beacon except it would be a countermeasure against sound-guided weaponry (torpedoes) instead of radar- or laser-guided weaponry.

Could such a grenade be produced? How effective would it be to divert a torpedo? Perhaps this grenade would have less chance of diverting a torpedo than a foxer.

If several of these grenades were activated at the same time, perhaps they would work like the foam grenade variant by AVRO, with each grenade increasing chance of diverting a torpedo (see link below).

SWAT HQ Salvage Yard - AVRO Rule Interpretations
http://www.seanet.com/~owenmp/avro-2000/rule-inter.html
Michael - This is brilliant! The idea of sonic grenades can go far beyond aquaduel mini-depth-charges! Imagine an arena duel where a sonic grenade could offer a a shock hazard without inflicting vehicular damage, in a radius. Arenas could use these as a "non-lethal" enforcement from turrets to force offenders into a wall and not risk damaging legal duellers that happen to be in the line of fire. (I, for one, would NEVER enter a duel where anyone could add crap to my car to enforce arena regulations - In Amateur Night, where the Sponsor supplied the vehicle, sure - But if I brought my own car, monkey-wrenches OFF!)

-John
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:22 PM   #5
owenmp
 
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Default Re: Questions before going into the water

John: Thanks for the kind words. In the real world there are flash-bang grenades. Flash grenades are already available in Car Wars. Perhaps in Car Wars there could be flash grenades, sonic grenades and flash-sonic grenades.

I forgot to mention sonic cannon should also be considered for aquaduels. I have never used those weapons in an aquaduel but they might be useful.
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Last edited by owenmp; 03-05-2015 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:58 PM   #6
swordtart
 
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Default Re: Questions before going into the water

Submarine sonar decoys certainly exist in the real world (since the second world war) but the mechanism wouldn't work in air.

In air you are you are talking about concussion grenades. Conventional grenades in water have a bonus concussion grenade effect out to 10" (presumably concussion grenades are similarly boosted). This could easily interfere with a sonar tracker that was passing through the area. As an instantaneous effect though it wouldn't be much use a long term decoy.

Given the short length of CW engagements a grenade case sized decoy would probably last long enough. I would suggest treating the effect as a smoke grenade affects conventional LOS weapons (or chaff dispensers affect radar weapons). If the sonar seeker has to trace LOS through the decoy it takes -1 to hit per 1/2" of decoy coverage.

Its probably easiest to just use the chaff dispenser rules and change the word RADAR to SONAR.
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Old 03-06-2015, 02:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Questions before going into the water

Quote:
Originally Posted by owenmp View Post
I just thought of a new weapon for aquaduels. It would be a grenade that does not explode but creates a large amount of noise underwater. It would be like a beacon mine or limpet beacon except it would be a countermeasure against sound-guided weaponry (torpedoes) instead of radar- or laser-guided weaponry.

Could such a grenade be produced? How effective would it be to divert a torpedo? Perhaps this grenade would have less chance of diverting a torpedo than a foxer.
Well, it would be in keeping with the IFE/FE/PFE/Foam Grenade line. Given its small size, tho', I'd say it only works on a 1 on 1d6.
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Old 03-07-2015, 12:02 PM   #8
owenmp
 
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Default Re: Questions before going into the water

swordtart: Thank you for your comments. I forgot about concussion grenades.

My idea of a sonic grenade would be a grenade that is a continuous generator of sound or bubbles underwater. The grenade would not explode like a concussion grenade. A sonic grenade would have a power supply with a very short lifespan. Perhaps the sonic grenade, if it could be recovered, could be recharged like a Laser LAW or Laser VLAW.
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Old 03-08-2015, 03:08 AM   #9
swordtart
 
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Default Re: Questions before going into the water

Hence my comments in para 3 & 4.

A grenade filled with carbide would produce a cavitation gas that would disrupt sonar waves for a small distance and taps some of that gas to give the capsule neutral buoyancy so the capsule remains at the depth it is sown.

I see no reason why a grenade sized version couldn't be produced (the WW2 ones are fairly small and CW ones only have to last a minute or so). I suggested read across from the smoke grenade to avoid having to invent new rules (and since the smoke grenade already produces gas). So the bubble grenade would be the same cost, weight, duration, area of effect, targeting modifier etc. as the smoke grenade, but it would only work underwater and only affect the targeting of SONAR equipment.

If you want a streaming effect you could just use the smoke screen and say special bubble rounds are available at the same parameters as smoke rounds, but again only work underwater and only affect SONAR equipment.

For game balance however you may prefer to agree that SONAR equipment is the same class as RADAR equipment and thus countermeasures should be equivalent. That would mean reading across from RADAR countermeasures.

Whilst this may not reflect the reality of the complexities of SONAR, CW doesn't operate at that level generally. I prefer a simple subset of rules with multiple effects rather than a proliferation of exceptions that just get hard to remember when playing and are hard to validate for game balance.
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