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Old 06-26-2019, 02:17 PM   #1
FeiLin
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Some questions on Spaceships

I'm trying to read through Spaceships, and I'm having some difficulties (it feels I'm doing more referencing and turning pages than actually reading). I read most of the rules, and decided to try a simulated fight between simple fighters. In the process, I was driven to such a despair that I went through any errata I could find in hopes that something was missing (alas, I couldn't find anything helpful).

First up, a straight-forward question: is it possible to fire identical weapons of different batteries at the same time without multitasking penalties? I assume it is possible to at least do with penalties, but there's a sentence that didn't make sense to me: "identical fixed mount weapons in a major, medium, secondary, or tertiary battery". Afaik, a major battery can only have one weapon, so it would be redundant to include them in that list, so I was thinking maybe it's supposed to be "identical fixed mount weapons of [a] battery" (ie that if they're identical they're considered to have the same trigger). Failing that, are there any ways to link them? I couldn't see anything in the book, so could that be done with Basic or something?

Secondly, do missiles only do "normal" damage? They would logically be ex and/or burn, also with some AD, but I couldn't find that info about missiles.

In general, is there like a "Guide to Spaceships", that gives some easy to follow examples or something...?



I'll be back... (with more questions, probably)
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:42 PM   #2
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Some questions on Spaceships

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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
First up, a straight-forward question: is it possible to fire identical weapons of different batteries at the same time without multitasking penalties?
I see no reason why they couldn't be fire-linked, even if there aren't explicit rules to allow them to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
Secondly, do missiles only do "normal" damage? They would logically be ex and/or burn, also with some AD, but I couldn't find that info about missiles.
They are entirely impact weapons, without a significant explosive payload (they might have something akin to such to allow them to be used as proximity warheads) - largely because in space you can get up to sufficiently high relative velocities that your impact alone exceeds the power of any comparable mass of conventional explosive. They simply do crushing damage. Do note that when not used as proximity warheads, they have a (2) Armor Divisor.
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: Some questions on Spaceships

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
First up, a straight-forward question: is it possible to fire identical weapons of different batteries at the same time without multitasking penalties? I assume it is possible to at least do with penalties, but there's a sentence that didn't make sense to me: "identical fixed mount weapons in a major, medium, secondary, or tertiary battery". Afaik, a major battery can only have one weapon, so it would be redundant to include them in that list, so I was thinking maybe it's supposed to be "identical fixed mount weapons of [a] battery" (ie that if they're identical they're considered to have the same trigger). Failing that, are there any ways to link them? I couldn't see anything in the book, so could that be done with Basic or something?

Secondly, do missiles only do "normal" damage? They would logically be ex and/or burn, also with some AD, but I couldn't find that info about missiles.
By the rules, I think it has to be all in one weapon battery system, but I'm always tempted to ignore that and allow a single gunner operate all identical weapons that can be brought to bear with no penalty (including turrets and weapons in different locations). Spaceships seems to think that slaving multiple turrets to a single director is impossible, despite it being pretty standard as far back as WWII.

As for missiles, they are assumed to be kinetic impactors, not explosive warheads. At the speeds involved, the most effective way to kill something is to hit it with something heavy. Be sure you are using the basic damage for the warheads and the multiplier for the impact speed.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:13 PM   #4
FeiLin
 
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Default Re: Some questions on Spaceships

I'd interpret the rules as disallowing multiple batteries to operate "as one", even though it's a bit counter-intuitive (an X-Wing would be less useful, for instance). Multiple engines can be considered to be an engine plate or simply a bigger one for the added effects. Imo, it'd make sense if multiple batteries could be combined to the same battery (at least with enough complexity or something). Do linked weapons fire at a higher RoF, or are they considered individual rolls, btw? And if they're separate, are they Dodged together (ie the Dodge MoS "spills over" to the other linked shots)?

Right, I missed that note on the missile AD. But regarding missiles, why are the base relative velocities different based on what scale the encounter is at? That makes no (intuitive) sense to me, or does a missile continuously accelerate (or at least is considered to do so in space)?
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:57 PM   #5
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Some questions on Spaceships

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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
why are the base relative velocities different based on what scale the encounter is at?
Longer distance scales, like shorter time scales, are used when the drives are higher performance. That is, the ships (and missiles) are normally moving faster. If you had slow ships, you wouldn't choose the Distant scale over Standard or Close. Or to look at it the other way around, if you have slow ships, short-range weapons, and Distant scale, you're going to have a long, boring combat as the ships aren't fast enough to close the distance and get into range.

It's not that the longer scale makes the missiles move faster, as it is that if you're using that scale, the missiles would have to be moving faster to hit such distant (and fast) targets (or else there'd be no point in using them). It's not a direct cause-and-effect (distance makes missiles go faster), but a correlation (fast ships means Distant scale, but also means faster missiles which along with the faster ships means relative velocities are typically going to be higher).

The basic combat system (as well as the SS design system) is meant to be fairly abstract and simple. It's not a system of solving Newtonian mechanics equations to determine the actual speed from exact known positions and elapsed times. Lots of values are approximations and averages, not hard engineering numbers.
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Old 06-26-2019, 11:35 PM   #6
FeiLin
 
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Default Re: Some questions on Spaceships

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
They are entirely impact weapons, without a significant explosive payload (they might have something akin to such to allow them to be used as proximity warheads) - largely because in space you can get up to sufficiently high relative velocities that your impact alone exceeds the power of any comparable mass of conventional explosive. They simply do crushing damage. Do note that when not used as proximity warheads, they have a (2) Armor Divisor.
Ok, so I reread the relevant parts, and this makes no sense to me. So, they are explosive, just not represented by the ex modifier when they actually hit something? Instead they get +4 TH and can deal MoS (max x10) hits (presumably only to the target).

Also, why the lack of variety of missiles? Afaik the only choice I have is barrel size and "nuke, super or neither" (disregarding warp, which seems not to behave like missiles). What if I want ion missiles that stun ships, more penetration, or different range? Maybe even different speeds depending on ammo. I could, of course, just go in and add/change it, but then I'd have to open the can of worms of adjusting costs, etc, which I'd rather wait with.



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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
It's not that the longer scale makes the missiles move faster, as it is that if you're using that scale, the missiles would have to be moving faster to hit such distant (and fast) targets (or else there'd be no point in using them). It's not a direct cause-and-effect (distance makes missiles go faster), but a correlation (fast ships means Distant scale, but also means faster missiles which along with the faster ships means relative velocities are typically going to be higher).

The basic combat system (as well as the SS design system) is meant to be fairly abstract and simple. It's not a system of solving Newtonian mechanics equations to determine the actual speed from exact known positions and elapsed times. Lots of values are approximations and averages, not hard engineering numbers.
Sure, there's a lot of approximations, and that's fair. I also agree that missiles need higher speeds if targets are faster. But that still doesn't really make sense that individual missiles will differ in lethality depending on this, unless the scale is fixed by setting (or at least campaign). This may be implicit, since choosing TL and what (super)science is allowed may make one engine type far superior to others, even if it's not explicitly the case in the rules.

Accepting this accepting this phenomena, however, incurs other headaches. Are then the Spaceship rules balanced with regards to weapon types, DR and HP? I dont see the other weapons change depending on their "relative speed", so that makes me wonder if I need to start out by outlining a few basic ship types and see what their move ranges are and thus what the most likely scale will be, and then go back to swap/plug in their weapon holes.

What I'm opting for is a solid foundation of beam weapons, with the occasional missile, but how would you start out if this is decided from the start as opposed to "finding it out" along the way? I could, of course, start meddling with costs, etc, but I'd prefer to keep it "as vanilla as possible".



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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
What it is is a larger-scale rules issue where the authors, either negligently or knowingly, wrote content that clearly isn't based on the rules as actually published. Maybe, like Stormcrow, they don't think that rules text is meant to be taken 'rigidly'.
Again for this issue: balance. I'm on the verge of just ruling that identical beam/gun weapons can fire even if separate batteries, if they're fixed, same facing and same target. But maybe that makes

Also, would you treat this as a higher RoF or make separate attack rolls, and (if separate attacks) would you Dodge only once and let MoS surplus cover more than one attack or Dodge once per attack?
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Old 06-27-2019, 12:49 AM   #7
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Default Re: Some questions on Spaceships

Consistency with the rest of the rules would make such a grouping work like any others - they are all lumped together in one attack, with a rate of fire equal to the total RoF of all the guns added together. See SS, p.57-58 "Rate of Fire".

I don't see any reason why multiple major batteries can't be grouped together like this. Then again, I'm cool with ships being designed with some or all of a medium (or smaller) battery's guns being placed into a turret and all being fired together. Naturally such a set-up would prohibit those guns from engaging separate targets.
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Old 06-27-2019, 08:07 AM   #8
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Default Re: Some questions on Spaceships

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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
Ok, so I reread the relevant parts, and this makes no sense to me. So, they are explosive, just not represented by the ex modifier when they actually hit something? Instead they get +4 TH and can deal MoS (max x10) hits (presumably only to the target).
This isn't an explosion dealing damage directly, but the penetrator bursting to create more (but less effective, thus the loss of armor divisor) submunitions.
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What if I want ion missiles that stun ships, more penetration, or different range?
While it has some superscience technology, the Spaceships core book largely avoids outright magic like Star Wars style "ion" weapons. If you want to introduce something like that, you would probably need to come up with the stats yourself.
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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
Sure, there's a lot of approximations, and that's fair. I also agree that missiles need higher speeds if targets are faster. But that still doesn't really make sense that individual missiles will differ in lethality depending on this, unless the scale is fixed by setting (or at least campaign). This may be implicit, since choosing TL and what (super)science is allowed may make one engine type far superior to others, even if it's not explicitly the case in the rules.
Actual movement is abstracted, but at Distant/20 sec, ships are assumed to be moving very fast relative to each other, while at Close/10 min, they are assumed to be very slow. When you launch a missile, it starts at the same speed as the launching vessel. At Distant/20 sec, the engine is primarily used for maneuver, not velocity.
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: Some questions on Spaceships

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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post

Also, why the lack of variety of missiles? Afaik the only choice I have is barrel size and "nuke, super or neither" (disregarding warp, which seems not to behave like missiles). What if I want ion missiles that stun ships, more penetration, or different range? Maybe even different speeds depending on ammo. I could, of course, just go in and add/change it, but then I'd have to open the can of worms of adjusting costs, etc, which I'd rather wait with.
There SHOULD be variety of missiles. For instance countermissiles should cost about a fraction per salvo of a shipkiller (or why didn't they throw them at the other formation in the first place). Missiles for delicate stuff like gunboat diplomacy, policework, and piracy should be more surgical. Conversely shipkillers should have better armor penetration capability than either countermissiles, or missiles made for light units or for skirmishing (the latter two can often be the same model). There should be different warheads like EMPers, Nukes, Laserheads, recon (and possibly conterrecon) drones, different attack plans and so forth. Some of these can be several apps put in the same guidance computer as options. But at the least there are reasons to have different sizes to make an expense worth the target.
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:54 PM   #10
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Some questions on Spaceships

[QUOTE=FeiLin;2271096]I'd interpret the rules as disallowing multiple batteries to operate "as one", even though it's a bit counter-intuitive (an X-Wing would be less useful, for instance). /QUOTE]

Why would an X-Wing have more than one battery?
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