The Last Gasp and Hiking

[lugaid]

Assuming that one wanted to use both the long-term fatigue rules from The Last Gasp and also the hiking rules, it seems like the latter's fatigue use isn't well balanced to the rules in the former. For instance, in the original hiking fatigue rules (p. B426), a 5-hour stretch of hiking with light encumbrance would cost 10FP. In that system, you'd then rest for 100 minutes to recover those and then march for another 5 hours. (As an aside, that seems like an excessive rest there, since a person should probably be good to go after maybe a half hour of resting, but at least it was possible, and within an order of magnitude or so.) In The Last Gasp, though, that same 10FP would require a total of 50 hours to recover (assuming starting Fatigue of 10). That doesn't seem at all reasonable for 5 hours of walking while carrying less than 40 lbs (at ST10).

What would be some reasonable ideas for reconciling these two systems?

[Flyndaran]

Pacing oneself is about knowing how to use AP in such a way as to never dip into Fatigue proper.
Healthy Gurps level characters should be able to hike at No Encumbrance all day without harm.
Maybe an entire day or some other set time of hiking may result in loss of 1 Ft for light, 2 for medium, etc.

[weby]

On hiking and rest times:
When in army back in late 1980s we did three types of foot movement:
Quick marches with minimal load(Just tracksuit+weapon Approx 6kg total: In GURPS terms likely no loead):It was more running than hiking.. and you were definitely tired after it but you could cover 25km between breakfast and lunch..

And then we had three types of normal marching:
With just battle gear(uniform+helmet+boots+webbing+weapon+extra ammo+eating utensils+water+overcoat for a total of about 13kg, in GURPS terms likely light load): The movement speed was at a brisk walking pace and the official rule was that 50 minutes of marching and 10 minutes break with a 30 minute food break instead every 4 hours. After the initial conditioning period, this thing was not tiresome in any real way, though you might still have things like blisters and such, but other than that you could repeat it at will.

With full pack (above and the backpack with things like second uniform, sleeping bag, several changes of underwear and more.. about 18-25kg more depending of if it was summer or winter, so in GURPS teems likely heavy load). The movement speed was noticeably slower, more like a slow walk. The official rule was the same as previously(50+10 minutes) but in practice you did get tired from this and two four hour periods was about maximum as you were pretty tired at time.

With everything... I mean everything that is platoon equipment divided between the people in the platoon.. Meaning we had things like anti-tank mines, heavy machine guns, tents+related gear, Anti-tank launchers and more.. In practice everyone got 10-20kg more over the full pack load. I do not know what the rest rules were, but the movement speed was normally really really slow.. and you did still get tired, part of it is that a lot of that extra gear had to be carried uncomfortably(much of it was big and bulky).

(Though once when participating in the national infantry skills competition, our company got a boatload of points by doing the last in less than half the time of the second ranking team over rough ground and 5 km distance.. as we had loads of district level, several national and couple international level athletes serving and we basically though about the load distribution, had a lot of people who in civilian life did heavy training(like the guy who ran those 5 kilometers carrying 80+kgs in his hands in addition to his full pack) and had people like the second ranked national orienteering guy pick the route(and do scouting of routes by running ahead in lighter pack) and such.. we were thus basically able to job the 5 kilometers with that load and pick the best route and such.. All the other teams took more like the normal heavy marching approach... basically our team was the handpicked platoon with best individuals from all the platoons in an unofficial "sports company".)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Pacing oneself is about knowing how to use AP in such a way as to never dip into Fatigue proper.

Yes - at least, not due to exertion.

Healthy Gurps level characters should be able to hike at No Encumbrance all day without harm.

Probably a good assumption.


The running/movement rules from TLG should not be extrapolated to long distance movement on a non-combat scale just yet. I had a system that I was looking to do, but it was broken, so it was cut rather than delay publication.

[Varyon]

One thing that's useful for using The Last Gasp with some of the existing FP costs is to allow for temporary FP damage. This damage would have the following characteristics:

-It imposes the same penalties as real FP loss under The Last Gasp.
-It recovers at the Basic Set FP recovery rate (1 per 10 minutes by default).
-Real FP cannot recover naturally while you are suffering from temporary FP loss.
-Once it reaches FP, you can no longer willingly spend it; involuntary losses reduce real FP.
-Each point of temporary FP damage reduces your maximum AP by 1 until it recovers.
-Spending real FP - say for a Second Wind or whatever - negates an equal amount of temporary FP damage.

What uses temporary FP damage is up to you. Let's say you decide that most sustained FP loss (like Hiking) uses this, as do Extra Effort and esoteric skills (like Power Blow), and a character who normally has 14 AP has lost 3 FP (out of 10) from Hiking when he suddenly gets ambushed. The temporary FP loss means his maximum AP is actually only 11, and he's at -1 to IQ/DX/HT and -10% to ST. During the fight, he has to use Extra Effort for Feverish Defense, dropping maximum AP to 10 and causing a total -2 to IQ/DX/HT and -20% to ST. With such reduced AP, he is forced to burn a real FP for Second Wind - this doesn't modify his penalty, and changes him from having 4 temporary FP damage to having 3 temporary FP damage and -1 to real FP. After the fight is over, resting for 30 minutes is enough to recover all his temporary damage, but he'll need to rest for a further 2 or so hours to recover from his mild fatigue.

[Humabout]

Off the cuff, assessing hiking FP on a daily basis instead of hourly, would allow all but the heaviest loads or hottest weather to accumulate FP (since you can recover up to 4 points of Mild FP loss while you sleep, if you get 8 hours of sleep. I feel like there should be a way to loose more than this if you lush yourself, but would be a form of Extra Effort to me.

I have to revisit other FP spendeers like paced running and sprintjng to see if anything springs to mind (I use to be a distance runner and never worked up enough FP to feel it the next day). Well, maybe the one time I got bored and ran 15 miles....

[EDIT]
Looking at it briiiiefly, I'd say the distance running looks about right. Figure a (lousy!) 17 minute 3-mile run would net a typical Fit runner with HT 11 an average 4.352 FP loss, which neither leaves Mild FP and recovers during his sleep. Marathoners get a bit hosed, but I'd expect such runners to have higher Running skill and/or more HT and FP. They would need to roll against a 16 or more to average 6 or less FP on a 5 hiur marathon, though. Not sure about them. Still, its in the ballpark, assuming such runners are that skilled (i'm seriously iffy there...)

[Flyndaran]

Record marathoners all but sprint the entire way. They don't use Paced Running.
Also, being forward thinking humans, racers pace themselves to run out of available energy as close to the finish line as possible.
Those able to run marathons don't run like that when racing a 5K, for example.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Humabout

Off the cuff, assessing hiking FP on a daily basis instead of hourly, would allow all but the heaviest loads or hottest weather to accumulate FP (since you can recover up to 4 points of Mild FP loss while you sleep, if you get 8 hours of sleep. I feel like there should be a way to loose more than this if you lush yourself, but would be a form of Extra Effort to me.
...

Don't forget the Will rolls to willingly give up Fatigue. 4 points is a massive loss. Sleep may feel restful, but it isn't really Rest as Gurps defines ,it in my opinion. When super fatigued, 8 hours, or however many you normally need, won't cut it.
We may assume rapid but non-LG fatiguing as Move/2 mph as HT lists for Hiking.
Running is Move*2 mph.
Paced Running is Move mph.
So daily Ft loss for hiking should increase until it hits the rate of paced running. Maybe increase by one Encumbrance level per rate increase.
None, Light, Medium, Heavy, Extra Heavy.
Move*50%, 66%, 75%, 100%?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Healthy Gurps level characters should be able to hike at No Encumbrance all day without harm.

A lot of that depends on what you think is a 'GURPS level character'. Someone not currently accustomed to hiking can go a full day, but they're going to feel pretty terrible the next day, and things like blisters are pretty likely.

[lugaid]

Some good suggestions so far. Keep them coming!

One possible idea I was thinking of today would be to assess fatigue every two hours instead of every one (probably spread out, so that 2FP in two hours would assess 1FP each hour), and change the recovery rates so that Mild Fatigue recovers at (120 mins/Starting FP), Severe Fatigue at (20 hours/Starting FP), and Deep Fatigue at (240 hours/Starting FP). That would make a five hour march assess a total of (2.5x2=) 5FP to someone marching with Light Encumbrance, and recovery would take (12 mins x 5=) 60 minutes for someone with starting 10FP. It also would mean that using abilities assessed in FP wouldn't be as crippling to use as they tend to be in TLG. Not sure that would work overall, though.