[DF] Maximum Skill Levels?

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

T

BTW, the fnords will go away tomorrow, if I remember to edit them for those that are not in the know. I assume that Kromm is in the know though.

If your fnord is as good as the Mystic Knight I can see myself picking up a copy of fnord

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by lachimba

If your fnord is as good as the Mystic Knight I can see myself picking up a copy of fnord

You flatter me. The fnord is IMHO much better than the Mystic Knight, that, after all, was my first article, my first professional writting for GURPS, and my first professional writting in English. Hell, it was my first professional writting!

Hindsight is 20/20, and I really see parts in the Mystic Knight article that could take a couple of layers of polish...

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Rupert

If you're running a game where the players routinely run into -15 penalties, even Weapon-40 starts to look a bit underwhelming, and that's DX20, skill DX+10 (the cap people seem to be talking about), and +10 from gear, Bond, & etc. Weapon-40 - 15 = 25 effective skill, and -9/-10 for eyes or chinks is already in the 'reduced crit chance' range. That's just not very flash.

I expect a real weapon master to be able to stab someone in the eye when that person is behind them, in total darkness (so only located by sound), while on bad footing and in a storm. The issue here for the weapon master should be hearing the guy come up behind him, and possibly the cap on wild swings if he can't find a way round it, not being able to land an awesome hit.

-10 to -15 penalties come for non-combat skills like traps. In combat, well, players have taken such penalties, right, but it was by choice (Deceptive Attack -16 to attack/-8 to defend, though it was backed by Daredevil for rerolls on crit failts, and Luck just in case). Also, the guy comming behind him? unless the master swordsman can see from the back of it's head, darkness penalty isn't going to be an issue. However, the post where I mention that talks about the characters becoming polymaths due to having to raise stats as skills have reached the caps. Don't take things out of context please.

Originally Posted by Rupert

IF you're throwing round -10 to -15 penalties, why will it not matter? Also, as I recall there are caps on ER (I could be wrong, of course), in which case this is only relevant at point range where the human mage can't yet afford that 10 ER.

Except that Kromm was stating that those caps should be relaxed. Also, even if the caps are in place, it's relevant at a point range where the mage can't affort to cap ER, Magery AND IQ. Since Wizards have an IQ cap of 25, that's a wide range.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Kromm

One last time, please note that I am not trying to be confrontational! I'm simply trying to give an answer that agrees with what DF actually assumes and is doing, so that those who aren't, say, Kuroshima or demonsbane won't be blindsided by the contents of current or future works. I can almost promise that sooner or later, some adventure or monster will assume a PC with skill 30 or 40, and that some power-up will give casters hundreds of energy points. DF doesn't assume a "level cap."

You didn't sound confrontational at all but explanatory, and I find these conversations stimulating. Thanks for such exhaustive answer; I'll be thinking about it.

OTOH I already totally agree with a number of your points, and at the same time, I was aware some of my arguments were written from a more or less subjective point of view concerning GURPS Dungeon Fantasy:

Originally Posted by Kromm

These points all speak to a valid play style. However, I'm writing to weigh in as the designer, so that people will know the thinking behind the templates, lenses, and power-ups; artifacts and monsters; and rules for task resolution. Those assumptions do include "it's a power fantasy," "delvers are emphatic stereotypes," and "I'm not using Magic – I'm faking it." It's fine for an individual GM to cap capability, but this may lead to player grumpiness when they peruse various publications

[Kromm]

No worries! The genre that DF covers is traditionally somewhat adversarial. It includes such thinking as: "Any limits the GM puts on the PCs have to be so that he can win, right? Because the game says I can do this, but the GM says I can't!" This only works properly if the game sets few limits – or even none, or actively encourages rampant power accumulation – but the GM sets many. ;)

[Greg 1]

I'm reading nothng confrontational!

In fact, I really appreciate the game designer taking such trouble to explain things to the users.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Kromm

No worries! The genre that DF covers is traditionally somewhat adversarial. It includes such thinking as: "Any limits the GM puts on the PCs have to be so that he can win, right? Because the game says I can do this, but the GM says I can't!" This only works properly if the game sets few limits – or even none, or actively encourages rampant power accumulation – but the GM sets many. ;)

I've got a player that will grumble if he isn't the center of the (game) world, and will also grumble if he is. I've got a compulsive whiner, that is also an expert Munchkin, that cut his teeth on all versions of D&D, and that was known as Onion Dan, because his characters had layers upping layers of protective magics on them (One of his characters, a level 25 spellcaster, spend 80% of his daily spell allotment on buffs). Both will try to argue anything, but I've put rule 0 ("During the game, the GM's word is final") on a post-it on my GM screen, and that works. They will argue before or after the game though, often via IM during the week.

Still, they have not seen my limits as unfair, and that's one of my litmus tests: If they don't complain, their from their point of view it's either fine, or they've already seen a way to twist it for their best advantage.

[Kuroshima]

FNORDs out on this post!

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

FNORDs out on this post!

It's much more intelligible now :)

The drawback is that we need to wait for a time until the release of such FNORDs . . . Lol

[PseudoFenton]

I'm glad we know what the fnords are now, that was driving me nuts trying to work it out! Of cause it could've just been because I was reading fnord a lot... they'll do that to you sometimes.