Confused about shapeshifting

[Ottriman]

So the modifier "Absorptive Change" (Powers page 75) states that without it one must leave all equipment behind, and even with it you cannot keep using equipment.

But what is the reasoning for this? This seems incredibly forced, especially if you are transforming into a body that has the same shape and size as your normal one. This is currently causing me a massive headscratcher, especially since I planned on using Alternate Form for the stereotypical "Dark" or "Super" modes some fictional characters enter.

Those don't meld their clothes away or mess with their equipment in any way, and sure are changing into a different form.

Currently I am modeling a person who cannot use her full power without losing control to an underlying battle instinct, and I chose for the sake of elegance to model that as an uncontrollable alternate form that powers her up and adds a ton of mental disadvantages.

And now I'm completely stymied by this.

Additional Question: What is the reasoning for applying the enhancements and limitations only to that flat 15 point cost, when these things (especially limitations) can *drastically* affect the usefulness of the form.

[Refplace]

Oh, thats a good question and to be honest one I never thought of!
In my mind and the way I have always seen or used it you only dropped the gear if you changed physical shape.
GURPS Horror: The Madness Dossier includes a template for charecters who have a mental shapechange and no mention of losing thier clothes is included.
I think it would have been if the author thought that happened.

Also since your talking Supers, I would allow Absorbtive Change to include costume changes, such as Shazam or Donald Blake to/from Thor.

[Ottriman]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Oh, thats a good question and to be honest one I never thought of!
In my mind and the way I have always seen or used it you only dropped the gear if you changed physical shape.
GURPS Horror: The Madness Dossier includes a template for charecters who have a mental shapechange and no mention of losing thier clothes is included.
I think it would have been if the author thought that happened.

Also since your talking Supers, I would allow Absorbtive Change to include costume changes, such as Shazam or Donald Blake to/from Thor.

Mind you that bolded one completely slipped my mind, but makes perfect sense.

Another Question (once again): Why is it that the *default* of shapeshifting has to include a way for it to be undone, when such is not the case for any other advantage? Abilities should all be wild by default, and slapping on a power modifier should be what causes it to be forcibly revertable by external action.

This is especially bizarre in light of powers that have no anti powers, which sounds like they're forced to take Once on Stays On. Alternative ways of being forced out that aren't anti-powers do not seem to be listed or explained.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Ottriman

Mind you that bolded one completely slipped my mind, but makes perfect sense.

Your welcome :) That was my thought too.

Originally Posted by Ottriman

Another Question (once again): Why is it that the *default* of shapeshifting has to include a way for it to be undone, when such is not the case for any other advantage?

I think this is a carryover from Third Edition thinking and it fits most examples.
Also helps justify that 10% price break.
Take "Once On, Stays On" and/or Cosmic, +50% to counter that as appropriate.
Thinking through examples, most shapechangers revert if unconscious and a lot have another trigger.
Hulk gets relaxed
Thor loses his hammer for 60 seconds
Shazam says the magic word
Berserkers calm down

[Ottriman]

Yes makes sense, I'll just have normal revert triggers also fall under the default as an alternative to a power modifier.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Also since your talking Supers, I would allow Absorbtive Change to include costume changes, such as Shazam or Donald Blake to/from Thor.

Also consider the Supersuit perk, which allows your uniform (only) to change with you without requiring the Absorptive Change enhancement.

Originally Posted by Ottriman

So the modifier "Absorptive Change" (Powers page 75) states that without it one must leave all equipment behind, and even with it you cannot keep using equipment.

But what is the reasoning for this?

I would read this, not as saying that equipment is automatically incompatible with the new form, but rather that the process of changing is normally incompatible with equipment. (Note that most limitations and enhancements on Alternate Form actually apply to the process of changing, rather than the whole time spent transformed - I'll get to this later.) So I'd say that without Absorptive Change, you'd have to strip before transforming, but if your form after that was compatible with your equipment, you could put it back on again.

Speaking as a GM, if your final form was pretty close to your original one, I'd also be all right with other drawbacks replacing the "have to strip" one - for instance, clothing could be uncomfortable during the transformation process, requiring a Will roll every turn to maintain concentration on the change. If you fail, that second wouldn't count against the time to transform.

Originally Posted by Ottriman

I planned on using Alternate Form for the stereotypical "Dark" or "Super" modes some fictional characters enter.

If the transformation is purely mental (as the ones in Horror that Refplace mentioned), or confers no disguise benefits at all (like just being a palette-swapped version of yourself the way some "Dark" characters are), I'd also be comfortable saying that Absorptive Change wasn't necessary, nor removing your clothing during the transformation. Basically, you're giving up the rather significant disguise benefits of Alternate Form, in exchange for not having to worry about the inconvenience of equipment.

Originally Posted by Ottriman

Additional Question: What is the reasoning for applying the enhancements and limitations only to that flat 15 point cost, when these things (especially limitations) can *drastically* affect the usefulness of the form.

As I mentioned above, most enhancements and limitations on Alternate Form and Morph affect the process of changing, rather than your final form. For example, things like Trigger or Costs Fatigue, that would normally last for a minute and then require you to pay the cost again, don't work that way for shapeshifting. You only need to pay the cost while transforming, and can then stay transformed indefinitely. To apply that kind of cost to the actual changed form, you'll generally apply disadvantages to it, reducing its template cost. This goes for most negative effects - if you tend to go berserk in the Alternate Form, you don't apply Temporary Disadvantage: Berserk as a limitation to Alternate Form, you just add Berserk to the template you get for being in the form.

Originally Posted by Ottriman

Another Question (once again): Why is it that the *default* of shapeshifting has to include a way for it to be undone,

That's why you're getting the -10% discount on the template cost - because there's a way to force you out of it. If you prefer to avoid that, take "Once On, Stays On", which removes the -10% discount.

Originally Posted by Ottriman

when such is not the case for any other advantage? Abilities should all be wild by default,

Shapeshifting having a termination clause doesn't mean it's not a "wild" advantage. A wild advantage is simply one that doesn't belong to a power. This is just the Shapeshifting advantages assuming the way a "typical" example of such an ability working, which all advantages do.

Originally Posted by Ottriman

This is especially bizarre in light of powers that have no anti powers, which sounds like they're forced to take Once on Stays On. Alternative ways of being forced out that aren't anti-powers do not seem to be listed or explained.

If you put a Shapeshifting ability in a power whose modifier doesn't include an anti-power clause, you can either choose to say that the shapeshifting ability is still potentially cancellable, or buy Once On, Stays On. The former is actually not that hard to justify. For example, if I buy Alternate Form (Giant Snake) with the Spirit modifier, I can say that I'm vulnerable to Exorcism forcing me to revert because the Alternate Form is literally being possessed and transformed by a giant snake spirit (which is vulnerable to being thrown out), whereas the rest of my abilities don't involve possession, just spirits lending a helping hand, and thus aren't vulnerable to Exorcism in the same way.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Ottriman

So the modifier "Absorptive Change" (Powers page 75) states that without it one must leave all equipment behind, and even with it you cannot keep using equipment.

Most shapeshifting examples in fiction are rather dramatic changes in size and shape. This restriction models the "change into Hulk, everything except your Comics Code purple pants bursts apart" kind of change.

If you were changing from one form into a nearly identical one, I (as a GM) would just ignore that requirement. If you are changing just into very similar forms, though, you might want the Elastic Skin Advantage as a base, rather than Shapeshifting (which is much more broad). You might even have Elastic Skin as an Alternative Ability with your Shapeshifting or Morph.

As Kelly mentioned, you don't become somehow mystically unable to use the equipment, a la D&D wizards and swords. "Have to take it off to keep it safe during the change" is perhaps a better phrasing than "have to leave it behind". If your human-form belt happens to fit your giant-form finger as a ring, then perhaps you can still use it. (Ask your GM exactly how the magic works, with detailed justifications at the particle physics level for how belts differ from rings so the mana can tell whether or not to flow :) Probably out of luck with your human-form ring, though. (Make sure to add a few tiny tentacles to the description of the giant for just this purpose! :)

What is the reasoning for applying the enhancements and limitations only to that flat 15 point cost, when these things (especially limitations) can *drastically* affect the usefulness of the form.

If you want to modify the abilities a form has, just apply the desired Limitations directly to those abilities. You don't have to apply some Limitation to every ability in a form. You can, if that fits the concept. Or might not, where that doesn't particularly fit the concept.

Modifiers applied to the Shapeshifting ability itself -- that base 15-point cost -- only affect the process of change. They'd usually be abilities to affect the time required, or perhaps the conditions needed for change (Environmental, Accessibility, Trigger, etc).

But those conditions wouldn't necessarily apply to each of the form's abilities, and so really shouldn't give you a discount on the entire form cost. If Mr. Hyde has ST 200, he doesn't get a huge 760-point discount for Trigger, because he's not consuming a rare, custom-made potion every time he needs an ST roll. Dr. Jekyll just needs that potion once to change into Mr. Hyde, who then wreaks havoc without that Limitation getting in the way even further.

Another Question (once again): Why is it that the *default* of shapeshifting has to include a way for it to be undone, when such is not the case for any other advantage?

Common in the source fiction, and also more interesting. You could negotiate an Enhancement with your GM to remove that restriction, if you really found it objectionable.

But it's not true that no other Advantage has built-in Limitations. Such are fairly common, actually. There's not a general principle in 4e that all Advantages are defined in a pure, unmodified form, to be modded by the player. Often, they're attempts to have a pre-packaged set of traits that are generally handy and resemble something you might expect from the fiction, though of course many if not most concepts will call for further modification. It's an occasional forum sport to deconstruct the existing Advantages and Disadvantages into a collection of more primitive components making up the presumed "meta-trait" in the book.

From a theoretical purist build-everything-from-scratch point of view, it would be nice for the base Advantages to be completely free of anything that could be represented as an Enhancement or Limitation. But that does make it even more time-consuming and complicated for the less dedicated players to build a character. There's a tradeoff between happy building and ease of character creation. And the GURPS editors don't seem to try to hew to any particular ideology, but rather skate around somewhere in the middle, with really common modifiers included by default on a case-by-case basis.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Ottriman

So the modifier "Absorptive Change" (Powers page 75) states that without it one must leave all equipment behind, and even with it you cannot keep using equipment.

But what is the reasoning for this? This seems incredibly forced, especially if you are transforming into a body that has the same shape and size as your normal one. This is currently causing me a massive headscratcher, especially since I planned on using Alternate Form for the stereotypical "Dark" or "Super" modes some fictional characters enter.

Those don't meld their clothes away or mess with their equipment in any way, and sure are changing into a different form.

Currently I am modeling a person who cannot use her full power without losing control to an underlying battle instinct, and I chose for the sake of elegance to model that as an uncontrollable alternate form that powers her up and adds a ton of mental disadvantages.

And now I'm completely stymied by this.

You’re not required to take Absorptive Change if you don’t think it fits the character. In the case of a “Dark” or “Super” Alternate Form, I would say that by RAW, without Absorptive Change, the character would drop anything held in the hands, whether it’s a sword or a pen, while changing (probably due to the change being painful but that’s merely the easiest gloss). As long as he has the manipulators and intelligence to do so, there’s nothing to prevent him picking up the dropped object once the change is complete and using it. OTOH, if the character doesn’t specifically pick the item back up and ends up in a battle ten city blocks away, that item is ten city blocks away from the character and there’s nothing the character can do about it without a Power like Snatcher to negate it. Likewise, if the Alternate Form is bigger than the human form (think Thing, Sasquatch or Hulk), anything worn has a significant chance of ending up in rags at the end of the transformation and a worn necklace might very well have one or more broken links or, if it’s strong enough, end up choking the wearer.

Also, don’t be quite so sure that they don’t have Absorptive Change. The Hulk could probably be represented as having Absorptive Change: None on the Bruce Banner form and maybe on the Hulk form as well. While Banner’s clothes get shredded (aside from the purple pants) the pants shrink back to Doc Banner size when the Hulk returns to his Banner form. By way of contrast Marvel had a parody character The Inedible Bulk in its old Not Brand Ecch! comic and one story back in the comic mimicked the then current fight between Hulk and the Sub-Mariner. When the Bulk transforms back to puny Bannerman during his fight with the Sunk-Mariner, he is shown holding onto his still enlarged purple pants with the remark, “Bulk smash, as soon as Bulk get strength to hold up own pants!” It’s humourous, but still suggestive that perhaps the Hulk does have a little Absorptive Change going on.

Additional Question: What is the reasoning for applying the enhancements and limitations only to that flat 15 point cost, when these things (especially limitations) can *drastically* affect the usefulness of the form.

As the others suggest, the Enhancements and Limitations on Shapeshifting, such as Absorptive Change, Improvised Forms, Non-Reciprocal Damage, Cosmetic, Retains Shape; Flawed, etc. do not, drastically or otherwise, directly affect the usefulness of the form, but only the utility of the act of switching between the forms. Therefore, they only apply to the basic 15 point (per form) cost. Changes that drastically change the utility of a particular form appear as part of the racial template cost and, in essence, you pay for what you get (although GURPS more commonly reverses that wording).

Another Question (once again): Why is it that the *default* of shapeshifting has to include a way for it to be undone, when such is not the case for any other advantage?

When Shapechanging first showed up in GURPS, it was specifically modeling the ability from fantasy and that was how it worked in that source material. When it expanded into GURPS Shapeshifters (the “detailed treatment” that “could fill its own book” [Powers p.74]) that was still largely the case. The various forms the Xenomorph takes in Alien is the only Alternate Forms case I can think of where it doesn’t apply. In that instance, the Alternate Forms represent the life cycle and would arguably be modeled as One Use Ever. The rarity of occurrence, suggests that not being forced back is the outlier and therefore the default choice, “as is”, more easily models most of the instances people will use Shapeshifting for which makes character creation easier.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ottriman

Mind you that bolded one completely slipped my mind, but makes perfect sense.

Another Question (once again): Why is it that the *default* of shapeshifting has to include a way for it to be undone, when such is not the case for any other advantage? Abilities should all be wild by default, and slapping on a power modifier should be what causes it to be forcibly revertable by external action.

Other advantages that aren't wild by default:

True Faith
Magic Aptitude
Power Investiture
Shadow Form

[Ottriman]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Other advantages that aren't wild by default:

True Faith
Magic Aptitude
Power Investiture
Shadow Form

Hmm this is true, guess I failed to notice those.

Guess my wishlist for GURPS 5th will include all abilities being source-agnostic until they're modified.

As to other comments on shapeshifting: These make sense for the most part. But I think people misunderstood me when I was asking about limitations.

For example if your alternate form costs 1000 points and then +15 for the advantage.

If you took a huge limitation on your alternate form to only be able to use it once in a blue moon, you still have to pay 1000 points for powers you only have very limited access to.

But wouldn't have to pay nearly as much if you always had them and applied a similar once in a blue moon thing to all the powers individually.

Which is nonsensical.